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Author Topic: Magical Histories and Magical Mysteries  (Read 6478 times)

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May 20, 2014, 03:22:06 PM
Reply #40

Hermione P

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It says here (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Felix_Felicis) that in the DH2 film, Slughorn was drinking Felix Felicis before the Battle of Hogwarts. But when?

I found part of the answer to my own question when I was rewatching Deathly Hallows for the Battle of Hogwarts anniversary - it's when McGonagall :mcgonagall: is talking about Seamus being good at blowing things up. Anything in the Ultimate edition DVD extras about what Slughorn was actually drinking?
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September 22, 2014, 03:55:26 PM
Reply #41

paint it Black

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I've been thinking recently about... the Dementor's Kiss.   :dementor:  Since we witness several attempts by Dementors to administer the kiss throughout the series (and once successfully), I am wondering how often this actually happens, and what becomes of the victims?  Is there a ward in St. Mungo's where they are fed and live out the rest of their lives?  Do their families keep them at home?  Do they just wither away alone?  It is really pretty horrible.  :(

What do you suppose became of Barty Crouch Junior after the Dementor administered the kiss to him?  Do you think that Fudge made any attempts to stop the dementor, or do you think it suited his purposes to have Crouch disposed of; either to be rid of a dangerous criminal, to have the truth suppressed, or both?

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November 08, 2014, 09:26:10 AM
Reply #42

Hermione P

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I was wondering how fake Moody and Snape would have taught about Boggarts to the third years in the 1994-1995 and 1996-1997 academic years respectively. If it's the wrong teacher and the wrong mix of students, it can be horrible for a bullied kid to have the classmate(s) bullying them know what their worst fear is. I imagine Snape mocking non-Slytherins about fears he deems mundane and fake Moody using what he knows about the kids' family backgrounds to intensify people's fears (like what he did to Neville).
I've been thinking recently about... the Dementor's Kiss.   :dementor:  Since we witness several attempts by Dementors to administer the kiss throughout the series (and once successfully), I am wondering how often this actually happens, and what becomes of the victims?  Is there a ward in St. Mungo's where they are fed and live out the rest of their lives?  Do their families keep them at home?  Do they just wither away alone?  It is really pretty horrible.  :(

What do you suppose became of Barty Crouch Junior after the Dementor administered the kiss to him?  Do you think that Fudge made any attempts to stop the dementor, or do you think it suited his purposes to have Crouch disposed of; either to be rid of a dangerous criminal, to have the truth suppressed, or both?
I was listening to Mugglenet's Alohomora podcast on this, and I agree with their theory that the person would be in a vegetative state.

I think Fudge would want to get rid of Crouch for both the reasons you stated to maintain short-term stability.
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November 08, 2014, 06:22:25 PM
Reply #43

Evreka

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I was wondering how fake Moody and Snape would have taught about Boggarts to the third years in the 1994-1995 and 1996-1997 academic years respectively. If it's the wrong teacher and the wrong mix of students, it can be horrible for a bullied kid to have the classmate(s) bullying them know what their worst fear is. I imagine Snape mocking non-Slytherins about fears he deems mundane and fake Moody using what he knows about the kids' family backgrounds to intensify people's fears (like what he did to Neville).
Of the many varying DADA teachers we've seen there was only some who brought live creatures in to class. Lockhart once, and otherwise Lupin. I think it's fully possible that Snape taught the third years about dangerous creatures simply through the text books, letting the students try the magic out on each other. When he takes a lesson for Lupin, he goes entirely by the textbook. Even (fake) Moody does not bring illustrations to class as far as we know, except the spiders that are used to illustrate the effect of the forbidden Curses that he - of course - can not demonstrate on students and still be believed to be the real Moody. So I don't think it's a given that they'd actually get to see everyone's worst fears. And I hope that's the case too, particularly with Snape, who would be very prone to use the knowledge.

As for Moody tormenting Neville, I'm not sure if that was really what he was doing. In the book, he does not single Neville out and show him this more than any other student. I think it might have been more that he really enjoyed to use that spell and sort of lost himself in it while under the pretence of showing the class. Also we later learn that you have to really mean these Curses and concentrate on them, I don't think he was aware of Neville's reaction once he'd started tormenting the spider. However, I do believe that he chose Neville to give the Crucio answer quite deliberately though.



I've been thinking recently about... the Dementor's Kiss.   :dementor:  Since we witness several attempts by Dementors to administer the kiss throughout the series (and once successfully), I am wondering how often this actually happens, and what becomes of the victims?  Is there a ward in St. Mungo's where they are fed and live out the rest of their lives?  Do their families keep them at home?  Do they just wither away alone?  It is really pretty horrible.  :(
I was listening to Mugglenet's Alohomora podcast on this, and I agree with their theory that the person would be in a vegetative state.
I think Hermione P's got a fair point there. Without your soul, without no understanding of self... I think you would become precisely like that.  :( As for where they'd go... Maybe there is a special department at Azkaban for these remnants of humans? Or Saint Mungo's I guess. Since they would be much worse off even than Frank and Alivce Longbottom I doubt they'd exist outside of an institution.

I guess the Kiss isn't administered often, or Black would have got one when he was caught red-handed (supposedly) as a lunatic mass murderer. So perhaps mainly for escaped convicts or in a war. Crouch Junior was, after all, an escaped prisoner.



Do you think that Fudge made any attempts to stop the dementor [kissing Crouch], or do you think it suited his purposes to have Crouch disposed of; either to be rid of a dangerous criminal, to have the truth suppressed, or both?
I think Fudge would want to get rid of Crouch for both the reasons you stated to maintain short-term stability.
I too, believe Fudge was desperate to not have his story heard and that it suited him perfectly to let the Dementor kiss him. No awkward questions, no scandals, perhaps the mere fact that he was found alive like this could be glossed over, by the swift acting Minister who administered this horrible punishment immediately.  >:(

Also, I think he planned it. Because why else would he insist on bringing the Dementor into the castle when the Headmaster had forbidden the Dementors to go in there? We know Fudge would do anything to look good in the eyes of the public - even throwing an innocent man into Azkaban! Then why not having a true criminal kissed without further ado?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 06:25:31 PM by Evreka »
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November 08, 2014, 07:20:16 PM
Reply #44

roonwit

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Do you think that Fudge made any attempts to stop the dementor [kissing Crouch], or do you think it suited his purposes to have Crouch disposed of; either to be rid of a dangerous criminal, to have the truth suppressed, or both?
I think Fudge would want to get rid of Crouch for both the reasons you stated to maintain short-term stability.
I too, believe Fudge was desperate to not have his story heard and that it suited him perfectly to let the Dementor kiss him. No awkward questions, no scandals, perhaps the mere fact that he was found alive like this could be glossed over, by the swift acting Minister who administered this horrible punishment immediately.  >:(

Also, I think he planned it. Because why else would he insist on bringing the Dementor into the castle when the Headmaster had forbidden the Dementors to go in there? We know Fudge would do anything to look good in the eyes of the public - even throwing an innocent man into Azkaban! Then why not having a true criminal kissed without further ado?
I am not convinced Fudge deliberately set up Crouch Jnr. to be kissed, as he doesn't seem to me to be deliberately cruel but it certainly suited him. I think he would be admitting too much validity in Dumbedore's story to silence Crouch to stop him talking about Voldemort, but Crouch's kiss means that Fudge can hush up a second escape from Azkaban more successfully.
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November 08, 2014, 08:52:20 PM
Reply #45

Evreka

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Do you think that Fudge made any attempts to stop the dementor [kissing Crouch], or do you think it suited his purposes to have Crouch disposed of; either to be rid of a dangerous criminal, to have the truth suppressed, or both?
I think Fudge would want to get rid of Crouch for both the reasons you stated to maintain short-term stability.
I too, believe Fudge was desperate to not have his story heard and that it suited him perfectly to let the Dementor kiss him. No awkward questions, no scandals, perhaps the mere fact that he was found alive like this could be glossed over, by the swift acting Minister who administered this horrible punishment immediately.  >:(

Also, I think he planned it. Because why else would he insist on bringing the Dementor into the castle when the Headmaster had forbidden the Dementors to go in there? We know Fudge would do anything to look good in the eyes of the public - even throwing an innocent man into Azkaban! Then why not having a true criminal kissed without further ado?
I am not convinced Fudge deliberately set up Crouch Jnr. to be kissed, as he doesn't seem to me to be deliberately cruel but it certainly suited him. I think he would be admitting too much validity in Dumbedore's story to silence Crouch to stop him talking about Voldemort, but Crouch's kiss means that Fudge can hush up a second escape from Azkaban more successfully.
That was primarily what I was after too. It was much more convenient for Fudge to be able to say that he'd been found and taken care of swiftly, than having to go through interrogations and explanations. The less people knew, the swifter the cover up.  :annoyed:

Still, Dumbledore, too, couldn't help noticing how convenient his demise was in terms of not being able to give witness of the events leading up to that night, so I think we can all keep a small doubt on how far his scheming went there.
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November 09, 2014, 04:28:16 AM
Reply #46

Hermione P

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I was wondering how fake Moody and Snape would have taught about Boggarts to the third years in the 1994-1995 and 1996-1997 academic years respectively. If it's the wrong teacher and the wrong mix of students, it can be horrible for a bullied kid to have the classmate(s) bullying them know what their worst fear is. I imagine Snape mocking non-Slytherins about fears he deems mundane
I think it's fully possible that Snape taught the third years about dangerous creatures simply through the text books, letting the students try the magic out on each other. When he takes a lesson for Lupin, he goes entirely by the textbook.
In 1993, Snape's learning objective for that class he substituted was that somebody would work out that Lupin is a werewolf. (I wonder if he gave the other cohorts that assignment too, on the pretext of teaching ahead, or revision of 3rd year work for the older students.) In any case, it's not safe to witness a werewolf transformation live.

Boggarts are a lot less harmful and Lupin deemed it safe to have the kids work on one. So in a year that Lupin wasn't teaching at Hogwarts, Snape was teaching DADA, and there was a Boggart available, he might have the same lesson plan as Lupin with very different results.
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November 09, 2014, 09:22:09 AM
Reply #47

roonwit

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Boggarts are a lot less harmful and Lupin deemed it safe to have the kids work on one. So in a year that Lupin wasn't teaching at Hogwarts, Snape was teaching DADA, and there was a Boggart available, he might have the same lesson plan as Lupin with very different results.[/font]
Dark creatures seemed to be Lupin's specialty. I am not convinced Snape would go to the effort of capturing a Boggart for practise even if there was one available.
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November 09, 2014, 09:25:00 AM
Reply #48

Evreka

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Dark creatures seemed to be Lupin's specialty. I am not convinced Snape would go to the effort of capturing a Boggart for practise even if there was one available.
Neither am I.

I think it's fully possible that Snape taught the third years about dangerous creatures simply through the text books, letting the students try the magic out on each other. When he takes a lesson for Lupin, he goes entirely by the textbook.
Boggarts are a lot less harmful and Lupin deemed it safe to have the kids work on one. So in a year that Lupin wasn't teaching at Hogwarts, Snape was teaching DADA, and there was a Boggart available, he might have the same lesson plan as Lupin with very different results.
Yes, I don't deny that he might have chosen to do this, I'm just saying that even if there was a Boggart, he might have chosen not to. The various DADA teachers seems to have very different tactics in their education, even if we exclude the pink toad who was no teacher at all, they do not go about teaching in the same way.

Lupin is an engaging teacher who goes out of his way to bring interesting creatures to his classes, but I don't think Snape is as interested to bring potential havoc creating creatures to his class. He seems to be much more eager to make sure he has the students full attention and faced with a Boggart he might no longer be the center of attention in the room. There is also the possibility that he would not want the students to know what his worst fear is. Given the delicate balancing act he has between keeping up an ambiguity on where his true loyalties lie, I wonder if he could really afford to have his worst fear known all over school?! All in all I think he would think twice about approaching a Boggart in front of others. Just my opinion. :)


« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 09:26:59 AM by Evreka »
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November 13, 2014, 03:16:48 PM
Reply #49

paint it Black

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Do you think that Fudge made any attempts to stop the dementor [kissing Crouch], or do you think it suited his purposes to have Crouch disposed of; either to be rid of a dangerous criminal, to have the truth suppressed, or both?
I think Fudge would want to get rid of Crouch for both the reasons you stated to maintain short-term stability.
I too, believe Fudge was desperate to not have his story heard and that it suited him perfectly to let the Dementor kiss him. No awkward questions, no scandals, perhaps the mere fact that he was found alive like this could be glossed over, by the swift acting Minister who administered this horrible punishment immediately.  >:(

Also, I think he planned it. Because why else would he insist on bringing the Dementor into the castle when the Headmaster had forbidden the Dementors to go in there? We know Fudge would do anything to look good in the eyes of the public - even throwing an innocent man into Azkaban! Then why not having a true criminal kissed without further ado?
I am not convinced Fudge deliberately set up Crouch Jnr. to be kissed, as he doesn't seem to me to be deliberately cruel but it certainly suited him. I think he would be admitting too much validity in Dumbedore's story to silence Crouch to stop him talking about Voldemort, but Crouch's kiss means that Fudge can hush up a second escape from Azkaban more successfully.

I see all of your points here, and I'm not yet convinced either way.  However... keep in mind that Fudge had no problem ordering the kiss for Sirius (without him ever having received a trial of any kind), so it's not the kind of thing that he's too timid or high-minded to authorize.  As Evreka pointed out, Dementors had not been brought into the castle before, though presumably they planned to do this to administer the kiss to Sirius.  So perhaps Fudge was prepared to use one specifically as a weapon.  Maybe he didn't order the Dementor to perform the kiss on Crouch, but perhaps he brought it along with the hope that things might get out of hand and the Dementor would take matters into its own scabby hands....  :dementor:  It certainly suited Fudge for it to have done so.

Dark creatures seemed to be Lupin's specialty. I am not convinced Snape would go to the effort of capturing a Boggart for practise even if there was one available.
Neither am I.

I think it's fully possible that Snape taught the third years about dangerous creatures simply through the text books, letting the students try the magic out on each other. When he takes a lesson for Lupin, he goes entirely by the textbook.
Boggarts are a lot less harmful and Lupin deemed it safe to have the kids work on one. So in a year that Lupin wasn't teaching at Hogwarts, Snape was teaching DADA, and there was a Boggart available, he might have the same lesson plan as Lupin with very different results.
Yes, I don't deny that he might have chosen to do this, I'm just saying that even if there was a Boggart, he might have chosen not to. The various DADA teachers seems to have very different tactics in their education, even if we exclude the pink toad who was no teacher at all, they do not go about teaching in the same way.

Lupin is an engaging teacher who goes out of his way to bring interesting creatures to his classes, but I don't think Snape is as interested to bring potential havoc creating creatures to his class. He seems to be much more eager to make sure he has the students full attention and faced with a Boggart he might no longer be the center of attention in the room. There is also the possibility that he would not want the students to know what his worst fear is. Given the delicate balancing act he has between keeping up an ambiguity on where his true loyalties lie, I wonder if he could really afford to have his worst fear known all over school?! All in all I think he would think twice about approaching a Boggart in front of others. Just my opinion. :)

That's a great observation; Snape is such a secretive guy (for obvious reasons) that letting others see his Boggart seems like something he would not subject himself to.  I also agree with you and roonwit that he's not the "hands on" kind of teacher that Lupin is, and would not necessarily have brought dark creatures to class, or at least, very rarely.

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November 13, 2014, 09:20:00 PM
Reply #50

Evreka

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I see all of your points here, and I'm not yet convinced either way.  However... keep in mind that Fudge had no problem ordering the kiss for Sirius (without him ever having received a trial of any kind), so it's not the kind of thing that he's too timid or high-minded to authorize.  As Evreka pointed out, Dementors had not been brought into the castle before, though presumably they planned to do this to administer the kiss to Sirius.  So perhaps Fudge was prepared to use one specifically as a weapon.  Maybe he didn't order the Dementor to perform the kiss on Crouch, but perhaps he brought it along with the hope that things might get out of hand and the Dementor would take matters into its own scabby hands....  :dementor:  It certainly suited Fudge for it to have done so.
That's a very interesting point, paint it Black! In the beginning of OOP, at Harry's Hearing, there is a discussion on whether or not the Dementors are still faithful to the Ministry. We learn by the end of the book that the Dementors who attacked Harry and Dudley were, indeed, ordered by a Minister (Umbridge) to attack them. So even a couple of months after the end of GOF, the Dementors didn't attack people without authorization. Then, why would they attack Crouch in this very offensive manner at pure sight of him?

The Kiss that was about to be administered to Sirius, was authorized by the Ministry, months ahead of his capture. Maybe Fudge believed that if the Ministry was OK with applying it to one convict, it could be done risk free to another?

Another alternative to him deliberately stopping Crouch from talking about Voldemort's return, might also be if he ordered the kiss from a point of view where he genuinely didn't think any further than the gloss-over part, never realising that he ruined any chances to learn something from Crouch Jr? And as it didn't dawn on him until too late, he got even more to gloss over and could therefore not afford to let Albus have it right?  :what:  :crabbegoyle:
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November 14, 2014, 01:37:26 PM
Reply #51

Hermione P

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I think it's fully possible that Snape taught the third years about dangerous creatures simply through the text books, letting the students try the magic out on each other. When he takes a lesson for Lupin, he goes entirely by the textbook.
Boggarts are a lot less harmful and Lupin deemed it safe to have the kids work on one. So in a year that Lupin wasn't teaching at Hogwarts, Snape was teaching DADA, and there was a Boggart available, he might have the same lesson plan as Lupin with very different results.
Yes, I don't deny that he might have chosen to do this, I'm just saying that even if there was a Boggart, he might have chosen not to. The various DADA teachers seems to have very different tactics in their education, even if we exclude the pink toad who was no teacher at all, they do not go about teaching in the same way.

Lupin is an engaging teacher who goes out of his way to bring interesting creatures to his classes, but I don't think Snape is as interested to bring potential havoc creating creatures to his class. He seems to be much more eager to make sure he has the students full attention and faced with a Boggart he might no longer be the center of attention in the room. There is also the possibility that he would not want the students to know what his worst fear is. Given the delicate balancing act he has between keeping up an ambiguity on where his true loyalties lie, I wonder if he could really afford to have his worst fear known all over school?! All in all I think he would think twice about approaching a Boggart in front of others. Just my opinion. :)
This leads me to think: What if Occumulacy works on Boggarts?
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November 15, 2014, 05:28:46 PM
Reply #52

Evreka

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Yes, I don't deny that he might have chosen to do this, I'm just saying that even if there was a Boggart, he might have chosen not to. The various DADA teachers seems to have very different tactics in their education, even if we exclude the pink toad who was no teacher at all, they do not go about teaching in the same way.

Lupin is an engaging teacher who goes out of his way to bring interesting creatures to his classes, but I don't think Snape is as interested to bring potential havoc creating creatures to his class. He seems to be much more eager to make sure he has the students full attention and faced with a Boggart he might no longer be the center of attention in the room. There is also the possibility that he would not want the students to know what his worst fear is. Given the delicate balancing act he has between keeping up an ambiguity on where his true loyalties lie, I wonder if he could really afford to have his worst fear known all over school?! All in all I think he would think twice about approaching a Boggart in front of others. Just my opinion. :)
This leads me to think: What if Occumulacy works on Boggarts?
Occlumency???  :mcgonagall2: Are you thinking Legilimence, perhaps? The ability to read someone else's mind is Legilimency, and that seems as the more dangerous of the two, in this case, I think...
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November 16, 2014, 05:10:25 AM
Reply #53

Hermione P

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Yes, I don't deny that he might have chosen to do this, I'm just saying that even if there was a Boggart, he might have chosen not to. The various DADA teachers seems to have very different tactics in their education, even if we exclude the pink toad who was no teacher at all, they do not go about teaching in the same way.

Lupin is an engaging teacher who goes out of his way to bring interesting creatures to his classes, but I don't think Snape is as interested to bring potential havoc creating creatures to his class. He seems to be much more eager to make sure he has the students full attention and faced with a Boggart he might no longer be the center of attention in the room. There is also the possibility that he would not want the students to know what his worst fear is. Given the delicate balancing act he has between keeping up an ambiguity on where his true loyalties lie, I wonder if he could really afford to have his worst fear known all over school?! All in all I think he would think twice about approaching a Boggart in front of others. Just my opinion. :)
This leads me to think: What if Occumulacy works on Boggarts?
Occlumency???  :mcgonagall2: Are you thinking Legilimence, perhaps? The ability to read someone else's mind is Legilimency, and that seems as the more dangerous of the two, in this case, I think...
I was thinking more along the lines of Snape being able to conceal his thoughts from the Boggart.
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November 18, 2014, 08:28:21 PM
Reply #54

Evreka

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Yes, I don't deny that he might have chosen to do this, I'm just saying that even if there was a Boggart, he might have chosen not to. The various DADA teachers seems to have very different tactics in their education, even if we exclude the pink toad who was no teacher at all, they do not go about teaching in the same way.

Lupin is an engaging teacher who goes out of his way to bring interesting creatures to his classes, but I don't think Snape is as interested to bring potential havoc creating creatures to his class. He seems to be much more eager to make sure he has the students full attention and faced with a Boggart he might no longer be the center of attention in the room. There is also the possibility that he would not want the students to know what his worst fear is. Given the delicate balancing act he has between keeping up an ambiguity on where his true loyalties lie, I wonder if he could really afford to have his worst fear known all over school?! All in all I think he would think twice about approaching a Boggart in front of others. Just my opinion. :)
This leads me to think: What if Occumulacy works on Boggarts?
Occlumency???  :mcgonagall2: Are you thinking Legilimence, perhaps? The ability to read someone else's mind is Legilimency, and that seems as the more dangerous of the two, in this case, I think...
I was thinking more along the lines of Snape being able to conceal his thoughts from the Boggart.
Aaah! OK, that makes perfect sense, thanks for explaining!  :hug: Interesting thought...  :hmm:

We don't really know how the Boggarts can assume the form that scares a person the most.  In order for Occlumency to help (provided it works on them), it would sort of suggest that it would gather it's form from reading the human's mind. I suppose it's possible, but it might also know this "by magic", ie by some other, non-described way that Boggarts can explore?  :what:

What do the rest of us think? How does a Boggart know which form to assume?  :-\
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November 22, 2014, 12:29:24 AM
Reply #55

paint it Black

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We don't really know how the Boggarts can assume the form that scares a person the most.  In order for Occlumency to help (provided it works on them), it would sort of suggest that it would gather it's form from reading the human's mind. I suppose it's possible, but it might also know this "by magic", ie by some other, non-described way that Boggarts can explore?  :what:

What do the rest of us think? How does a Boggart know which form to assume?  :-\

Hmm... that's a tough one.  I'm not sure if Occlumency would help; I guess it depends on what exactly it blocks.  If it blocks all access to all memories, then yes, perhaps it would work against Boggarts, if it is used quickly enough.  If it only blocks access to what one is thinking about at the moment, then perhaps not.  I doubt everyone would instantly start thinking of the one thing they were most frightened of the moment they entered the presence of a Boggart, especially people who had no idea what a Boggart was.  So if that were the case, perhaps the Boggart has a magical means of accessing a specific part of a person's memory that contains their fear, or somehow has access to the memory or idea that is most likely to cause the release of the brain chemical/s associated with fear.

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November 28, 2014, 04:50:57 PM
Reply #56

HealerOne

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In regards to Boggarts - I was just reading on Pottermore what JKR has to say about them:

Spoiler
"Like a Poltergeist, A Boggart is not and has never been truly alive. It is one of the strange non beings that populate the magical world, for which there is no equivalent in the Muggle realm. Boggarts can be made to disappear, but more Boggarts will inevitably arise to take their place. Like Poltergeists and the more sinister Dementors, they seem to be generated by human emotions."
   (My itallics.)

Snape tries very hard not to exhibit emotions and most of the time he does very well with that. However, Harry seems to be one of the only persons who is able to push his emotional buttons fairly regularly. So I would assume Snape wouldn't want to be in the company of a Boggart and Harry at the same time. I don't think that blocking his thoughts would be enough to dispel the Boggart from recognizing his emotions.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 02:43:55 AM by HealerOne »
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July 28, 2015, 12:49:33 AM
Reply #57

paint it Black

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I was wondering today about the permanency of spells and hexes.  Obviously, a Permanent Sticking Charm is likely permanent (though possibly its caster could undo it...?).  And I'm guessing that Conjuring charms are temporary, or wizards would never need currency, for they could magic anything they needed into existence.

Mostly what got me thinking is the fateful night with Harry and Dumbledore on the Astronomy Tower.  When Dumbledore is killed, the Body-Bind Curse that he had placed upon Harry is lifted.  What other spells that are put into place during a wizard's lifetime continue to be in effect after their death?  Sirius' Permanent Sticking Charm still kept his Gryffindor paraphernalia adhered to his bedroom walls after his death.  The dust-demon curse that Moody set up in Grimmauld Place still worked after his death.  So how does a wizard's death effect the spells s/he has cast in his/her lifetime?


Another thought about that night on the Astronomy Tower: What would have happened there had Harry not given all of the Felix Felicis to his friends, but had instead taken a swig of it himself before he headed off to the cave with Dumbledore?  Would Felix have altered the situation for Harry when he is faced with the threat of Dumbledore's imminent death?  :hmm:

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August 05, 2015, 07:00:45 PM
Reply #58

Evreka

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I was wondering today about the permanency of spells and hexes.  Obviously, a Permanent Sticking Charm is likely permanent (though possibly its caster could undo it...?).  And I'm guessing that Conjuring charms are temporary, or wizards would never need currency, for they could magic anything they needed into existence....
Ooooh, what a lovely post to bite in!   :grouptalk:

My thoughts...

I would imagine that the duration of some Spells (including charms/hexes/jinxes... and so on) are determined at the time they are cast. For instance a Permanent Sticking Charm, is made/conjured to be permanent and hence it never ceases to have effect. As opposed to an "ordinary" sticking charm, which might make things unstick if the wizard or witch who cast it dies. Otherwise it wouldn't be much point in calling it "permanent", would it?

In the same manner, if you take an Unbreakable Vow, you can not break it and not undo it. If you fail to live up to it, you die - we have this directly from Ron, who once almost was subjected to it as a very young child. Something that made Arthur far more furious than Ron had ever seen him since, if I remember correctly. So I imagine these are two examples of things that are set up to hold for ever - and so they do.

However, it's not hard to see why this might not be the most desirable effect in all cases. After all, circumstances change, people change, destinies change. So I think it would be reasonable if you thought things through carefully before using this kind of magic.

For instance, if you protect someone by a Body-Bind Curse, it might be safer by far to have the Charm lift if you die, than to force them to suffer in complete immobility for the rest of their lives... I suppose it might even be impossible to achieve that kind of effects on living humans without their express consent - like someone who takes the Unbreakable Vow, does agree to the Vow expressively. Otherwise, I shudder to think what the Death eaters could use the ever-lasting magic for....

Speaking of ever-lasting, I remember there being ever-lasting icicles, and if so they must last longer than whoever charmed them into being (or however they are made).

So maybe... You can have permanent effects on things, but not on living humans (without consent)?



I do wonder though, how the students practice on permanent Spells?  :-\  Imagine the amount of cushions that would line the walls in the charms classroom? Or could you still Vanish an object that is Permanently stuck? :what:

What do others think?


Another thought about that night on the Astronomy Tower: What would have happened there had Harry not given all of the Felix Felicis to his friends, but had instead taken a swig of it himself before he headed off to the cave with Dumbledore?  Would Felix have altered the situation for Harry when he is faced with the threat of Dumbledore's imminent death?  :hmm:
I have long thought about this myself. Since they were six to split the second half of the Potion as it was, it might have been lucky he didn't, but...

I have this sneaky suspicion that it might have occurred to Harry to take a bucket or similar with him to the cave and the island. Then Voldemort would have been outsmarted, since the only reason someone had to drink that retched potion was because they had to scoop it up from the basin, but they had no where to put it that would prevent it from leaking into the lake. Hence drinking it (ie putting it inside you) was the only "container" available. But with a bucket, Albus would have had full health when they returned to Hogwarts and that might have changed loads. Obviously it would also have been in effect upon returning to Hogsmeade so they would have avoided Rosmerta somehow and in general have been way better off, I think.
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August 06, 2015, 05:29:18 AM
Reply #59

ss19

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Another thought about that night on the Astronomy Tower: What would have happened there had Harry not given all of the Felix Felicis to his friends, but had instead taken a swig of it himself before he headed off to the cave with Dumbledore?  Would Felix have altered the situation for Harry when he is faced with the threat of Dumbledore's imminent death?  :hmm:
I have long thought about this myself. Since they were six to split the second half of the Potion as it was, it might have been lucky he didn't, but...

I have this sneaky suspicion that it might have occurred to Harry to take a bucket or similar with him to the cave and the island. Then Voldemort would have been outsmarted, since the only reason someone had to drink that retched potion was because they had to scoop it up from the basin, but they had no where to put it that would prevent it from leaking into the lake. Hence drinking it (ie putting it inside you) was the only "container" available. But with a bucket, Albus would have had full health when they returned to Hogwarts and that might have changed loads. Obviously it would also have been in effect upon returning to Hogsmeade so they would have avoided Rosmerta somehow and in general have been way better off, I think.

Hmm, interesting theory, but if the solution was as simple as having a bucket, couldn't Dumbledore have easily conjured a bucket, or summoned one, or brought Harry back to Hogwarts to get a bucket and come back another time?  Dumbledore had come to the conclusion that the potion must be drunk.  There was no other way.  The problem wasn't that they had no place to put the potion, but that it was impossible to even scoop up the potion unless someone drank it.

In fact, we got confirmation from Kreacher in DH that the potion must be drunk.  Even Voldemort himself couldn't get around that by bringing a bucket to the lake.  Instead, he had to bring Kreacher to drink the potion in order to empty the basin so he could put in the locket horcrux.  Regulus later drank the potion too, so he could empty the basin and steal the locket.

Dumbledore made the decision to drink the potion partially because he was running out of time anyway.  His hand was injured/cursed the previous summer before school started.  Snape contained the curse to the hand temporarily but estimated that Dumbledore had no more than a year left before the curse spreads and kills him.  It was June the following year when Dumbledore and Harry went to the lake, so Dumbledore was going to die soon anyway.  I don't think it would have made much difference if Harry had taken some Felix Felicis that night.  I think things pretty much happened the way Dumbledore wanted them to, given the circumstances.

 :dumbledore: :harry:
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