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Author Topic: Magical Histories and Magical Mysteries  (Read 9709 times)

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August 07, 2015, 12:03:23 AM
Reply #60

roonwit

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I was wondering today about the permanency of spells and hexes.  Obviously, a Permanent Sticking Charm is likely permanent (though possibly its caster could undo it...?).  And I'm guessing that Conjuring charms are temporary, or wizards would never need currency, for they could magic anything they needed into existence.
I always wondered if you could get around a permanent sticking charm by removing a layer of the wall it is stuck to with the object. However, I don't think you can unstick something with a Permanent Sticking Charm on it

I have long thought about this myself. Since they were six to split the second half of the Potion as it was, it might have been lucky he didn't, but...

I have this sneaky suspicion that it might have occurred to Harry to take a bucket or similar with him to the cave and the island. Then Voldemort would have been outsmarted, since the only reason someone had to drink that retched potion was because they had to scoop it up from the basin, but they had no where to put it that would prevent it from leaking into the lake. Hence drinking it (ie putting it inside you) was the only "container" available. But with a bucket, Albus would have had full health when they returned to Hogwarts and that might have changed loads. Obviously it would also have been in effect upon returning to Hogsmeade so they would have avoided Rosmerta somehow and in general have been way better off, I think.

Hmm, interesting theory, but if the solution was as simple as having a bucket, couldn't Dumbledore have easily conjured a bucket, or summoned one, or brought Harry back to Hogwarts to get a bucket and come back another time?  Dumbledore had come to the conclusion that the potion must be drunk.  There was no other way.  The problem wasn't that they had no place to put the potion, but that it was impossible to even scoop up the potion unless someone drank it.
I also agree that Voldemort would have though of a bucket or very large cup so I don't think that would work, but FF might still have helped. For example it would surely have reminded Harry to use fire to keep the inferi at bay, and might have delayed their attack a bit because no inferus happened to be near enough to grab Harry's hand when he filled the cup. It would probably also have allowed Harry to suggest to Dumbledore any loop holes that Voldemort left in his magic that Dumbledore could exploit. So for example Harry could suggest that Dumbledore tried to make the potion transparent as Voldemort later did, and it might be possible to do magic on Regulus' locket when it was still in the potion, as Voldemort planned for the horcrux to be there and that was probably already protected against such magic. Thus if it was possible to open the locket and read the note while it was still in the potion then Harry would have suggested it.
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August 08, 2015, 02:02:47 PM
Reply #61

Evreka

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I was wondering today about the permanency of spells and hexes.  Obviously, a Permanent Sticking Charm is likely permanent (though possibly its caster could undo it...?).  And I'm guessing that Conjuring charms are temporary, or wizards would never need currency, for they could magic anything they needed into existence.
I always wondered if you could get around a permanent sticking charm by removing a layer of the wall it is stuck to with the object. However, I don't think you can unstick something with a Permanent Sticking Charm on it
Interesting idea.  :) 

What would happen if you completely destroyed whatever it was stuck to? I tend to think the whole thing ought to be destroyed. Wall plus Portrait for instance. Otherwise, you would never be able to tear down a house with one Portrait stuck with a Permanent Sticking Charm inside it. Or at least that wall would remain unharmed?

So then the question becomes how deep the Permanent Sticking is sticking? Would it be enough to just remove the surface of the wall? Half of the wall? Or something in between? Good question! :)

What do others think?


Another thought about that night on the Astronomy Tower: What would have happened there had Harry not given all of the Felix Felicis to his friends, but had instead taken a swig of it himself before he headed off to the cave with Dumbledore?  Would Felix have altered the situation for Harry when he is faced with the threat of Dumbledore's imminent death?  :hmm:
... I have this sneaky suspicion that it might have occurred to Harry to take a bucket or similar with him to the cave and the island. Then Voldemort would have been outsmarted, since the only reason someone had to drink that retched potion was because they had to scoop it up from the basin, but they had no where to put it that would prevent it from leaking into the lake. Hence drinking it (ie putting it inside you) was the only "container" available. But with a bucket, Albus would have had full health when they returned to Hogwarts and that might have changed loads. Obviously it would also have been in effect upon returning to Hogsmeade so they would have avoided Rosmerta somehow and in general have been way better off, I think.
Hmm, interesting theory, but if the solution was as simple as having a bucket, couldn't Dumbledore have easily conjured a bucket, or summoned one, or brought Harry back to Hogwarts to get a bucket and come back another time? 
I'm not so sure about this. I think Voldemort has safe-guarded the cave to prevent it from allowing any kind of  magic that was fore-see-able (to Voldemort) as potentially helpful. We know several things that refuses to work: Accio!,  Apparition/Disapparition, Aguamenti!, and all the magic Dumbledore throws at it to begin with. I'm sure it would have been impossible to conjure a bucket inside that cave. However, I think it is unlikely that the boat or other magic would have been aware of the presence of a bucket entering the cave in the first place. So if it was a physical, actual bucket it might have worked.  :)

As for leaving and coming back later... I'm not sure Albus would want to take that risk. To be so close to the [supposed] Horcrux and just let it be... What if someone else found the cave now that the entrance was opened? Or would it need more human blood on the return trip? Neither option seems very safe...


Let's go back to the source:
Quote
[From Albus, HBP,  (Kindle Locations 8472-8473)]
This potion cannot be penetrated by hand, Vanished, parted, scooped up or siphoned away, nor can it be Transfigured, Charmed or otherwise made to change its nature. 

Quote
[From HBP,  (Kindle Locations 8504-8506)]
Dumbledore lowered the crystal goblet into the potion. For a split second Harry hoped that he would not be able to touch the potion with the goblet, but the crystal sank into the surface as nothing else had; when the glass was full to the brim, Dumbledore lifted it to his mouth.

... Dumbledore had come to the conclusion that the potion must be drunk.  There was no other way.  The problem wasn't that they had no place to put the potion, but that it was impossible to even scoop up the potion unless someone drank it.
The quote does seem to confirm this, but... I ask myself how the crystal goblet, while sinking into the potion, can know where it will be emptied?   :mcgonagall2:  :what:

So what I think, is that when Voldemort designed this place, he saw only one solution - it had to be drunk, or it would flow into the lake and stir the Inferi. And if drunk, the Potion would torment you for awhile and then you would either die from the potion or you'd need water which would invoke the Inferi... coming to the same end. Albus and Harry are stuck in this nightmare, as designed, because they can not contain the potion elsewhere.

IF they had brought with them a bucket, however, they would still have gotten the potion out of the basin by the crystal goblet, and instead of drinking it, it could have been poured into the bucket. Or, if the goblet would somehow know not to release it's content except into a mouth; Albus could have taken a mouthful from the goblet, spit it into the goblet, taken the next mouthful, spit that out, and so on....



In fact, we got confirmation from Kreacher in DH that the potion must be drunk.  Even Voldemort himself couldn't get around that by bringing a bucket to the lake.  Instead, he had to bring Kreacher to drink the potion in order to empty the basin so he could put in the locket horcrux.  Regulus later drank the potion too, so he could empty the basin and steal the locket.
Not really... We only get confirmation that Voldemort intended this to be the only solution, so that was what he tested on poor Kreacher. And that Regulus then proceeded in the same way, possibly not even considering if Voldemort might have left a loophole somewhere else!   

It's not the same thing as to say that there are no other ways, just because the one who set the deadly trap up, didn't consider any others. We know that Voldemort frequently overlooks things. Among other things, he never considered the protection Harry got from killing Lily, not in 1981 and not it's linguering effects 10+ years later, either. He admits this himself, at the end of GOF and in the presence of all returning Death Eaters. Further, he missed the crucial fact that House-Elves could Apparate out of that cave, meaning we know for a fact that there were things that could go contrary to his plans even in that cave!!!


I also agree that Voldemort would have though of a bucket or very large cup so I don't think that would work, but FF might still have helped. For example it would surely have reminded Harry to use fire to keep the inferi at bay, and might have delayed their attack a bit because no inferus happened to be near enough to grab Harry's hand when he filled the cup. It would probably also have allowed Harry to suggest to Dumbledore any loop holes that Voldemort left in his magic that Dumbledore could exploit. So for example Harry could suggest that Dumbledore tried to make the potion transparent as Voldemort later did, .....
I agree that Felix Felicis would have suggested any kind of helpful loophole that it might have been possible to exploit, and my bucket theory is but one such.   :)

But we know from the events in DH that roonwit refers to, the potion turning transparent for Voldemort, that Albus was wrong in his assessment that it could not be ... Transfigured, Charmed or otherwise made to change its nature.  ...., as it WAS possible to turn transparent.   :nhnick:


..., and it might be possible to do magic on Regulus' locket when it was still in the potion, as Voldemort planned for the horcrux to be there and that was probably already protected against such magic. Thus if it was possible to open the locket and read the note while it was still in the potion then Harry would have suggested it.
Yes..., but the problem with this is that I can't see Albus wanting to try to do magic on the Horcrux itself, while still in the cave. Surely, he'd much prefer to get away from the Inferi before even attempting to open it? So even if Harry had suggested this, I'm not so sure Albus would have agreed. They didn't even bring the Sword with them, so it can't have been Albus intention to harm the Horcrux in the cave. So unless Harry told Albus he had help from Felix Felicis.... I can't see Albus agreeing to this?



Dumbledore made the decision to drink the potion partially because he was running out of time anyway.  His hand was injured/cursed the previous summer before school started.  Snape contained the curse to the hand temporarily but estimated that Dumbledore had no more than a year left before the curse spreads and kills him.  It was June the following year when Dumbledore and Harry went to the lake, so Dumbledore was going to die soon anyway. ...
I think he had more information to give Harry, and if Albus had died under more controlled forms, he might have been able to pass on the Sword, at least, to him directly - with an explanation of why it was invaluable.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 02:08:11 PM by Evreka »
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August 08, 2015, 04:42:31 PM
Reply #62

HealerOne

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Interesting discussion. I think you have a point that the caster of the spells/jinxes/hexes etc. doesn't always think of all the possible loopholes. I imagine that the journey into the cave and all you have to do to get to where the potion is, could be so unnerving that one should be forgiven for not siphoning out all possible loopholes for themselves. Even DD makes mistakes ...

I was wondering today about the permanency of spells and hexes.  Obviously, a Permanent Sticking Charm is likely permanent (though possibly its caster could undo it...?).  And I'm guessing that Conjuring charms are temporary, or wizards would never need currency, for they could magic anything they needed into existence.
I always wondered if you could get around a permanent sticking charm by removing a layer of the wall it is stuck to with the object. However, I don't think you can unstick something with a Permanent Sticking Charm on it

I always enjoyed the part where the Muggle Prime Minister and staff tried to get the picture of that ugly man off the wall. I'm sure they tried everything they could think of including taking part of the wall away. However I do wonder in the case of the ugly man if he didn't call upon the Ministry of Magic to help out, so that the people assaulting the picture were 'suddenly called away'.  Or perhaps as part of the permanent sticking charm - there is a defense mechanism that works around any attempt to thwart the original charm?
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August 08, 2015, 05:01:37 PM
Reply #63

roonwit

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I'm not so sure about this. I think Voldemort has safe-guarded the cave to prevent it from allowing any kind of  magic that was fore-see-able (to Voldemort) as potentially helpful. We know several things that refuses to work: Accio!,  Apparition/Disapparition, Aguamenti!, and all the magic Dumbledore throws at it to begin with. I'm sure it would have been impossible to conjure a bucket inside that cave. However, I think it is unlikely that the boat or other magic would have been aware of the presence of a bucket entering the cave in the first place. So if it was a physical, actual bucket it might have worked.  :)
I think Voldemort wouldn't have worried about real or conjured buckets and instead merely limited the amount of potion that could be removed at any one time, such as by stopping any more being removed until the first portion was drunk, and probably refilling the basin the removed portion wasn't drunk - Dumbledore and Harry made no attempt to refill the basin, but it was full again when Voldemort returned so there is magic on it to refill in certain circumstances.
But we know from the events in DH that roonwit refers to, the potion turning transparent for Voldemort, that Albus was wrong in his assessment that it could not be ... Transfigured, Charmed or otherwise made to change its nature.  ...., as it WAS possible to turn transparent.   :nhnick:
I think Dumbledore missed it because he was looking for a way to get the horcrux out of the basin, so he didn't look for Voldemort's way to make the potion transparent (he would probably only allow one specific spell to work).
I always enjoyed the part where the Muggle Prime Minister and staff tried to get the picture of that ugly man off the wall. I'm sure they tried everything they could think of including taking part of the wall away. However I do wonder in the case of the ugly man if he didn't call upon the Ministry of Magic to help out, so that the people assaulting the picture were 'suddenly called away'.  Or perhaps as part of the permanent sticking charm - there is a defense mechanism that works around any attempt to thwart the original charm?
It only says they tried to remove the picture from the wall, so it doesn't sound like they tried more drastic measures. The Prime Minister wouldn't have told them the real reason he wanted the picture removed, and he would seem rather peculiar if he insisted they damage or demolish a wall just to get rid of a rather ugly picture.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 05:12:25 PM by roonwit »
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