October 17, 2018, 03:45:27 PM

Author Topic: Chapter 17: The Man with two Faces  (Read 2077 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

September 05, 2013, 04:31:40 PM

JaneMarple9

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 439

(Artwork by …. 
Chapter summary originally by atschpe    )


Ron:You know, I still can’t believe we didn’t suspect Quirrel.

Harry: Quirrel was using Snape. He knew we were onto him. He was
even expecting me.

Harry: Dumbledore said that my mother’s protection runs in my veins and someone allowing evil into their heart could not bare to touch me.

Hermione: But You-know-who should have deduced that after you refused to hand him the stone or consider to join him.

Ron: Maniac! And don't forget he tried to kill you during your first Quidditch Match.

Hermione: And I knocked him over when I set fire to Snape, who was actually helping!

Harry: And if it weren’t for Snape he would have succeeded. That’s also the reason why he refereed the second match.

Harry: Dumbledore says he hated my dad. Yet seeing dad saved his life, Snape felt compelled to look out for his son.

 Hermione: But how come, Quirrel couldn’t retrieve the stone himself?

Harry: Apart from me keeping him from concentrating … Dumbledore said, that only one who wanted to find the stone but not use it would be able to get the stone from the mirror.

Harry: If it weren’t for you Draco would be strutting around with a spring in his step. You got us the House Cup!

Neville: I only got ten points.

Ron: Without them we would have been level pecking with Slytherin.


Questions
(Please feel free to answer as many questions as you like, and bring up a few of your own! )


The Two faced Man – the Janus figure. On face value the chapter title refers to Quirrel. Can you find other characters this Janus description could be describing here?
Why do you think Dumbledore and Flamel never considered destroying the Philosopher's Stone earlier?
Neville is instrumental to winning the House Cup. Do you remember your reaction to this when you first read this? How have your thoughts on his winning the last 10 points changed now that we have read all the books?





"There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with a really big library"
Logged
September 06, 2013, 10:51:47 PM
Reply #1

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
Why do you think Dumbledore and Flamel never considered destroying the Philosopher's Stone earlier?
I suspect Flamel needed a bit of persuading that it really was necessary before allowing the stone to be destroyed.
Neville is instrumental to winning the House Cup. Do you remember your reaction to this when you first read this? How have your thoughts on his winning the last 10 points changed now that we have read all the books?
Dumbledore was showing his approval of what Neville tried to do and encourage him to stand up to others in the future - Neville might otherwise wonder if actions were right given the trio actually earned lots of points rather than lose them. I think Dumbledore also choose to award Hermione the same number of points that she lost trying to get rid of Norbert, and scaled Harry and Ron points accordingly.
Logged
September 07, 2013, 10:14:42 AM
Reply #2

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303
I suppose the Two Faces image could also be applied to Snape. He seems to be really mean, and everything is pointing towards him being involved in evil. As Quirrel points out, it is useful having him around as everyone will automatically suspect him without further ado. And now it turns out he actually hit his true face in the same way as Quirrel concealed Voldemort. Quirrel appeared nice and harmless while really being evil - and with Snape, it's the other way round.

Neville deserves a hundred points really for the courage he shows throughout the series. He has a lot of growing up to do, growing up under his Grandmother's definately loving but also difficult - to- handle care. I think in OoTP he starts standing up to her when he tells the trio You know what she's like when you met her at St Mungo's. It's then when he also starts acknowledging his background story in front of others. But I'm drifting off .... ::)
Logged
September 07, 2013, 05:31:51 PM
Reply #3

HealerOne

  • Staffer
  • *****
  • Posts: 914
    • Chasing the Tale
One person, which I know I never would have thought of as a Janus figure until I read DH, is Dumbledore. Throughout these early books we only are able to see the figure that Dumbledore wants Harry to see - the kindly Headmaster that takes special care to watch out after him. The very wise man that is fair to all the students. We don't see the calculating Dumbledore behind that kindly image that is trying to 'measure up' Harry and see what kind of a kid Harry has turned out to be. The Dumbledore that thinks Snape (Who, I agree, can also be seen as a Janus figure.) can forgive what was in his past and be fair to the child of his enemy, James. At this point in the story, I don't think Dumbledore is as calculating as he becomes once he is convinced Harry has to be groomed to fight Voldemort and eventually be killed so that Voldy can then be killed. So I think the reference to a two faced person can also be thought of as DD (but of course we still don't know that!).   
Logged
September 07, 2013, 10:09:33 PM
Reply #4

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
At this point in the story, I don't think Dumbledore is as calculating as he becomes once he is convinced Harry has to be groomed to fight Voldemort and eventually be killed so that Voldy can then be killed.
Actually, I think Dumbledore was even more calculating than that because he realized that Harry had to think he was going to his death in the forest to give his comrades the protection his mother gave him, but also knew that because Voldemort took Harry's blood to create his new body there was a good chance that Harry could escape death again because of his mother's sacrifice. So despite what he tells Snape, Dumbledore is hoping that Harry will survive his sacrifice.
Logged
September 08, 2013, 10:41:37 AM
Reply #5

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303
I agree that Dumbledore was calculating from the start. Just think about the way he watches Harry in PS - his use of the Mirror of Erised, and then the way Dumbledore gives Harry the chance to meet   Voldemort and confront him. It's as Harry says - Dumbledore wanted to give him the chance to measure himself against his enemy for the first time, and watch him while doing it.

P.S. By the way - are we going to discuss CoS soon ? Can't wait .... ;D
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:43:25 AM by siena »
Logged
September 09, 2013, 11:58:57 AM
Reply #6

Hermione P

  • *****
  • Posts: 208
    • My Tumblr page
It's been pointed out on Tumblr that Dumbledore :dumbledore: gave Neville :neville: the 10 points for doing at 11 what he (and also Lupin) failed to do as older teenagers - standing up to friends when they are breaking moral/school rules.
Logged
April 06, 2014, 05:09:12 PM
Reply #7

Evreka

  • Quibbling Queen
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
    • Try & Trix
Neville is instrumental to winning the House Cup. Do you remember your reaction to this when you first read this? How have your thoughts on his winning the last 10 points changed now that we have read all the books?
I remember cheering with all of Gryffindor House!  :gryffindorc:  :stars:

And even back then I loved how his actions were promoted too, as he was really making a good decision generally speaking (even if, in this case, the trio needed to go).


Neville is instrumental to winning the House Cup. Do you remember your reaction to this when you first read this? How have your thoughts on his winning the last 10 points changed now that we have read all the books?
Dumbledore was showing his approval of what Neville tried to do and encourage him to stand up to others in the future - Neville might otherwise wonder if actions were right given the trio actually earned lots of points rather than lose them. I think Dumbledore also choose to award Hermione the same number of points that she lost trying to get rid of Norbert, and scaled Harry and Ron points accordingly.
This makes a lot of sense.

It's been pointed out on Tumblr that Dumbledore :dumbledore: gave Neville :neville: the 10 points for doing at 11 what he (and also Lupin) failed to do as older teenagers - standing up to friends when they are breaking moral/school rules.
I really like this reasoning as well, it makes perfect good sense, and also shows how well Albus learned his lessons in the past...



I suppose the Two Faces image could also be applied to Snape. He seems to be really mean, and everything is pointing towards him being involved in evil. As Quirrel points out, it is useful having him around as everyone will automatically suspect him without further ado. And now it turns out he actually hit his true face in the same way as Quirrel concealed Voldemort. Quirrel appeared nice and harmless while really being evil - and with Snape, it's the other way round.
Another Janus figure, in a way, is Minerva, who outwardly appears so sincere and strict and yet have such a warm heart underneath.  :mcgonagall: While it is not a two-sided coin between evil and goodness, its's a two-sided coin on coldness versus caring.


Also, in yet another way, it fits Neville sort of. The clumsy kid who is scared of so many different things, even with this glorious ending for him in PS/SS, who would have thought that he'd do what he did in DH? He goes from a comical relief, clumsy, not very important character - to a hero.... And as with Albus, as others have pointed out, we have no idea of the scope of this in PS/SS.
Logged
April 06, 2014, 06:15:07 PM
Reply #8

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303

Another Janus figure, in a way, is Minerva, who outwardly appears so sincere and strict and yet have such a warm heart underneath.  :mcgonagall: While it is not a two-sided coin between evil and goodness, its's a two-sided coin on coldness versus caring.

I disagree. We see McGonagall's warmer, more emphatic side early on - when she appoints Harry Gryffindor seeker instead of punishing him for breaking school rules. We see there and then how much she cares about Quidditch, and how much she is willing to stretch school rules. Snape, on the other hand, doesn't reveal his warmer side until he draws his very last breath in DH with the plea Look at me ....  :'(







Also, in yet another way, it fits Neville sort of. The clumsy kid who is scared of so many different things, even with this glorious ending for him in PS/SS, who would have thought that he'd do what he did in DH? He goes from a comical relief, clumsy, not very important character - to a hero.... And as with Albus, as others have pointed out, we have no idea of the scope of this in PS/SS.


I don't know ... Rowling gives us loads of hints about Neville's potential in PS. He shows signs of being willling to fight for what he believes is right very early on with his courage to stand up to Harry, Ron and Hermione in order to defend Gryffindor house. Also Harry tells him that he is a true Gryffindor when he is in doubt about being chosen for that house.

What I'm trying to say is that both Neville and McGonagall reveal themselves much more than Snape does, they aren't really split personalities at all - both of their seemingly contradictory  characteristics are present from the beginning in their personalties in my opinion.













 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 06:38:42 PM by siena »
Logged
July 12, 2017, 12:10:05 AM
Reply #9

alongside

  • *****
  • Posts: 6
"Why do you think Dumbledore and Flamel never considered destroying the Philosopher's Stone earlier?" I've just re-read PS/SS and a number of questions like this one popped into my head. Was Dumbledore (DD) interested in using the philosopher's stone as bait for a Voldemort that really hadn't been destroyed -- in a similar way as he had IMHO Snape's wand at the end? DD returns the cloak to Harry now that he is of age to receive it. I remember lots of discussion as to why DD borrowed the cloak in the first place, but not a definitive answer. At the time DD borrowed the cloak, the wand already in his possession, I think he would not have the desire to combine the hallows for power. Was it to study the hallows with the hope of temporarily bringing back his loved ones to explain and ask forgiveness? Perhaps DD thought that some aspect of the Philosopher's stone might serve as a substitute of sorts for the missing hallow? It has always been an interesting discussion on how much DD knows as he gradually re-introduces Harry to Voldemort. As Harry says ''to face Voldemort if I could....."
Logged
July 17, 2017, 04:40:13 PM
Reply #10

HealerOne

  • Staffer
  • *****
  • Posts: 914
    • Chasing the Tale
. I remember lots of discussion as to why DD borrowed the cloak in the first place, but not a definitive answer. At the time DD borrowed the cloak, the wand already in his possession, I think he would not have the desire to combine the hallows for power. Was it to study the hallows with the hope of temporarily bringing back his loved ones to explain and ask forgiveness? Perhaps DD thought that some aspect of the Philosopher's stone might serve as a substitute of sorts for the missing hallow? It has always been an interesting discussion on how much DD knows as he gradually re-introduces Harry to Voldemort. As Harry says ''to face Voldemort if I could....."
My impression from what DD says in the King's Cross  chapter of Hallows was that he was tempted after James died to pursue the power of the Hallows, but he did not covet the Cloak. However he "Lost his head" when he saw the Gaunt's ring with the stone in it. I guess the thing is that DD was not above being tempted by the Hallows and acting on that temptation, but was amazed and proud that Harry, although tempted, was able to stave off that temptation.  Interesting that Harry's  story starts with temptation about a Stone and ends with the use of  another stone - not for greed - but for helping Harry face his fate...
Logged
July 17, 2017, 10:09:19 PM
Reply #11

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
I've just re-read PS/SS and a number of questions like this one popped into my head. Was Dumbledore (DD) interested in using the philosopher's stone as bait for a Voldemort that really hadn't been destroyed -- in a similar way as he had IMHO Snape's wand at the end?
We start with the stone in the Gringotts vault (presumably Flamel's) so I can't see it as bait at that point. I think Dumbledore's prime motive in moving it to Hogwarts is to keep it close so he can protect it, but I am sure Dumbledore also considered its value as bait to get Voldemort to reveal himself in trying to reveal it.
 
DD returns the cloak to Harry now that he is of age to receive it. I remember lots of discussion as to why DD borrowed the cloak in the first place, but not a definitive answer. At the time DD borrowed the cloak, the wand already in his possession, I think he would not have the desire to combine the hallows for power. Was it to study the hallows with the hope of temporarily bringing back his loved ones to explain and ask forgiveness?
I think the reason Dumbledore borrowed the cloak was was pure interest, taking the opportunity to study it, possibly in conjunction with the Hallow he already had. He would however have needed the resurrection stone to bring back his loved ones (the Hallow he wanted most by that stage). I think his original plan was to keep the cloak for a few weeks or until James needed it back, and I think it unlikely that he expected to make much progress on finding the resurrection stone as a result.
Perhaps DD thought that some aspect of the Philosopher's stone might serve as a substitute of sorts for the missing hallow?
I think that is unlikely. He probably also has had plenty of time already to study the philosopher's stone though his long association with Nicolas Flamel.
It has always been an interesting discussion on how much DD knows as he gradually re-introduces Harry to Voldemort. As Harry says ''to face Voldemort if I could....."
I think Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would come after the stone and possibly Harry as well, so it made sense to prepare him, though I expect he was hoping he could detect Voldemort before he was any risk to Harry.
Logged