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Author Topic: Chapter Eight - Flight of the Fat Lady  (Read 1558 times)

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March 13, 2014, 08:04:50 PM

JaneMarple9

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Chapter Eight: Flight of the Fat Lady
(Chap Summary by twiddlethosedials )



Fan Art by cathybites


Defense Against the Dark Arts continues to be Harry’s favorite class, and Potions his least favorite - but suddenly, Care of Magical Creatures has become boring, with students forcing lettuce down the throats of flobberworms. At least Harry’s got Quidditch to look forward to, but it suddenly loses its luster when the notice is posted about the first Hogsmeade trip. Harry has tea with Lupin instead of going to town and learns what he fears most isn’t so much the Dementors - it’s fear itself. After the feast for Halloween, no one can get back into the Common Room - Sirius Black has attacked the Fat Lady.

A few questions to get you started:

1) Lupin knows about Harry’s aversion to tea leaves. Do the professors gossip?

2) What does Harry’s boggart say about him?

3) Lupin and Snape seem like such polar opposites, so why is Lupin able to trust Snape when Harry isn’t?



"There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with a really big library"
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March 14, 2014, 10:10:22 PM
Reply #1

roonwit

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1) Lupin knows about Harry’s aversion to tea leaves. Do the professors gossip?
The whole school gossips. Just look at how quickly news of Neville's Boggart spreads. The story of Harry's tea leaves could have spread by the students to Lupin, or perhaps McGonagall told him in case Harry was still worrying about it and needed cheering up.
2) What does Harry’s boggart say about him?
Harry's Boggart is the scariest thing around him at the time. This contrasts with Hermione's Boggart which is a fear of failure.
3) Lupin and Snape seem like such polar opposites, so why is Lupin able to trust Snape when Harry isn’t?
Lupin tells us this later, that he trusts Snape because Dumbledore does. It may also be that Lupin picked up Snape's love for Lily and deduced his reason for switching sides after Lily died.
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March 15, 2014, 11:56:30 AM
Reply #2

siena

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I wouldn't call it gossip exactly - it has a bit of a negative connotation. As I remember from my time as a teaching assistant, teachers do talk about their lessons and their students during staff meetings but also during breaks in the staff room, and it is quite essential for them to know what's going on in different classes.

I think Harry's and Hermione's boggarts are similar. They are both afraid of concepts, rather than material things, animals or persons. I remember that we had a discussion about this before at Leaky and ss19 wrote a very good answer to the question of concepts and fear. If you are reading this ss19 - maybe you could retrieve this post and post it here, I think it would be very helpful.

I feel Lupin was always a little bit in between James and Sirius on one side and Snape on the other. James and Sirius were his friends and he never really stood up to them but as we learn in OoTP he regretted this quite a bit. He never liked Snape and clearly wouldn't want to be on his side but I think he could relate to Snape and his feelings as an outsider more than the others clearly partly due to his own history. He knew how it felt (and still knows I guess) to be an outsider.
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March 15, 2014, 03:23:03 PM
Reply #3

HealerOne

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Interesting discussion on Lupin and Snape. I think also that Lupin is very very grateful to Snape for providing him with the Wolfbane potion. Taking that potion had to have caused Lupin to trust Snape. Any misgivings Lupin had about Snape before that surely melted after he successfully had a transformation without the pain and agony he had in the past. He may have initially taken the potion on the word of Dumbledore that Snape would not hurt him, but once he experienced the positive effects of the potion I think he was convinced that Snape was committed to DD and the 'good' side.
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March 16, 2014, 06:04:09 AM
Reply #4

Eva Hedwig

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Lupin and Snape seem like such polar opposites, so why is Lupin able to trust Snape when Harry isn’t?

In my opinion Harry does a bad job to not trust Snape. It is one thing to be his pupil and endure a hard time with him, ( he is not the only Gryffindor and I see this as an school issue ) But there is another issue much more important than school, its defending the whole WW against Voldemort and his followers.  Snape has saved Harry's life in his first year and it should have been obvious for him that he was there to help him in emergencies. Harry accused Snape  of trying to steal the stone and found out that he was protecting it against Voldemort. Quirrell and DD confirmed this.   He behaves very stubborn and too emotional and doesn't accept any opinion which favors Snape ( from Hermione and DD) but stick with the infantile opinions of Ron.  He needed to mature seven years before he was able to understand and let go of enmity.

Lupin had a better start in trusting Snape and accepting his help, he was a  real gentleman, and understood humans much better than Harry.  He never felt any real agressions towards Snape. I agree with Siena, that Lupin as an outsider was able to understand Snape and was able to respect him and be friendly. And he also trusted DD and his decissions blindly and acepted him as a fellow fighter against V.
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March 16, 2014, 01:28:38 PM
Reply #5

siena

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I think you are judging Harry, Ron and the other Gryffindors a bit harshly, EvaHedwig. Of course in retrospect we, as readers, recognise all the hints that Rowling gave us regarding Snape's true position. In PS, we hear Quirrell stating that he finds it very useful to have Snape swooping around like an overgrown bat, so that everyone will suspect him rather than poor stuttering Quirrell. Quirrell also gives us another clue about Snape: He says that Snape hated Harry's father. Of course this is the real reason for Snape's hostile behaviour towards Harry. I just think that Snape is so mean to Harry and the other Gryffindors (just think of the way he treats Neville and his toad in PoA) that it is very, very difficult to believe his on the good side. Yes, he did save Harry's life in PS and this should have made us as readers and Harry as a character realise we need to watch Snape more closely. However, I would not say that it frees him from all our suspision yet. Rather, Snape is one to watch. And this is what Harry does - and Snape's behaviour towards Lupin so far suggests that there is indeed reason for concern. Lupin, on the other hand, knows the background story and knows that while Snape is hostile towards him, he wouldn't harm him - last but not least because Dumbledore trusts Snape and because the potion that Snape brews really helps him, as HealerOne pointed out.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:03:15 PM by siena »
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March 16, 2014, 08:29:19 PM
Reply #6

ss19

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I think Harry's and Hermione's boggarts are similar. They are both afraid of concepts, rather than material things, animals or persons. I remember that we had a discussion about this before at Leaky and ss19 wrote a very good answer to the question of concepts and fear. If you are reading this ss19 - maybe you could retrieve this post and post it here, I think it would be very helpful.

Gosh, I wish I could retrieve my posts from Leaky Lounge, but that site has been down since April of 2013.  I haven't completely lost hope that it'll come back someday, but in the meantime I can't get any of my posts from there except the few that I managed to save a copy of before the site went down.  I don't remember what I wrote about concepts and fears, and don't have that particular post saved, unfortunately.  I really appreciate that you remembered my post though, siena!

Anyway, getting back to the topic (and hoping not to contradict my own previous writing which I don't remember), I see Harry as someone who's amazingly resilient in that he has such a terrible time growing up, with everything that happened to him and being a marked man by the most feared person in the wizarding world, yet somehow he is able to take everything in stride.  He is an orphan being raised by abusive relatives, but I don't see any indication that he is scared of them at all (he doesn't hesitate to talk back at or be cheeky with his aunt/uncle/cousin).  In the first two books we saw how he was able to face whatever danger that came his way.  So none of these physical dangers or enemies are his boggart.  The dementor, however, basically takes away his ability to deal with all these other things.  It takes away his resiliency, his happiness, his friendships, his capacity to love and forgive, his courage, etc., leaving him defenseless against all these other things that could hurt him.  As Lupin points out, the dementors affect Harry more than they affect others because after they take away all the "good" in one's life and leave all the "bad", Harry has more "bad" he has to deal with than everyone else.  But I think the flip side of this is also true, that Harry has an unusually large amount of "good" that the dementors can take from him, more than almost everyone else.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:32:18 PM by ss19 »
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March 20, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
Reply #7

siena

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No, you didn't contradict yourself - thank you for posting this, ss19  :)

I remember that I had to read your post on Leaky at least twice to get my head (which was aching a bit from the effort  ;D I might add) around it, but with this one I was alright.

I don't want to spend too much time here complaining about Leaky, but I do have to say it is very annoying that we can't even access our old posts anymore  :(  I had wanted to save some about Snape - not my own mind you, but from people like LauraW and  yourself and some others - but too late  >:(

Anyway, but I agree (again) with what you said. Harry has an extraordinary amount of goodness which the Dementors could potentially rob him off, and also a high amount of sadness that they could aggravate. He is one of these amazing people who are able to find a balance within themselves, and the fear of losing this balance is was makes Harry vulnerable.
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March 22, 2014, 05:51:14 PM
Reply #8

paint it Black

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I love how Lupin befriends Harry in this chapter.  This is, after all, the son of one of Lupin's dearest friends, and under different circumstances Harry would likely have grown up with Lupin being in his life.  :hug:

I agree with siena about the teachers -- yes they may gossip, but regarding their students they are more likely to simply discuss any concerns regarding them.  As roonwit said, McGonogall may have mentioned the tea leaves incident to Lupin so that he was aware that Harry may still be concerned about it.  Or she may just have been explaining about Trelawney's yearly death-prediction ritual, and mentioned that Harry was the 'victim' this time.

I also agree with HealerOne's view about Lupin's trust of Snape and the potion that he made for him.  I think that Lupin mostly suffers in silence as a werewolf, and that he is very grateful to have access to the potion that would prevent the extreme pain that comes with his transformation, and thus is grateful to Snape for making the potion.  Lupin doesn't ask for sympathy for his condition, and seems uncomfortable accepting special treatment for it (as when Dumbledore makes accommodations for him to attend school and later gives him a job as a professor).  He is extremely grateful to Dumbledore for these kindnesses though, and as a result has become very loyal to him.  So this extended loyalty to Snape I think also plays a part in his trust of Snape's potion.

I also think that Lupin may feel as though James and Sirius gave Snape an unreasonably hard time during their days in school.  Although Snape is clearly still bitter about this, Lupin perhaps feels a little bad about it, and has grown up enough to try to let bygones be bygones (although Snape seems unable to let go of his childhood grudges).  Although I have to give Lupin points for dressing Snape as Neville's grandmother to get rid of Neville's Boggart.  :clap: Do you think that Lupin knew in advance that Neville's Boggart would take the form of Snape?  Would Lupin have had the nerve to go through with the lesson (as we saw it happen) if Snape had not left the staff room at the start of the class?  :snapeboggart:

I notice something about Lupin in this chapter that I continue to see hints of throughout the series, and I wonder if others have seen it as well.  Several times when he and Harry are having tea together, Harry gets the impression that Lupin has just read his mind about something.  It happens again in Chapter 10 when they are discussing Dementors.  I'm wondering if Lupin didn't have some skill as a Legilimens.  If you are curious about this, keep an eye out as you continue reading the series.  Perhaps I'm wrong and that Lupin is simply a kind, empathetic and perceptive person.  Or perhaps JKR intended at some point later in the series for Lupin to need these skills and so began inserting the hints of it here, but never followed through with that plot.  At any rate, it won't be the last time I see reference to something like this in the series.  :reading:

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March 22, 2014, 06:41:01 PM
Reply #9

siena

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I would certainly agree that Lupin could be a skilled Legillimens. He is a very able wizard. Yet - I can't really believe that he would use this skill without very good reason, and most definately not on an innocent, unexpecting pupil like Harry. He just wouldn't,  I think - he is such a moral, ethically correct person. Snape, on the other hand, isn't really the most ethical person around is he now  ;) so yes, he wouldn't hesitate from using it against Harry, especially if there is an opportunity to do Harry in (for example in HBP for using a Potions book that's been amended).

I think Lupin is just very genuinely interested in getting to know his best friend's son, as you said. But he wouldn't want to double cross him in any way, even though he would like to know what Harry is thinking. I think trying to access his thoughts would have meant taking advantage of him.

But all of this is just my opinion, I can't prove any of it.
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March 22, 2014, 10:12:03 PM
Reply #10

roonwit

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I also think that Lupin may feel as though James and Sirius gave Snape an unreasonably hard time during their days in school.  Although Snape is clearly still bitter about this, Lupin perhaps feels a little bad about it, and has grown up enough to try to let bygones be bygones (although Snape seems unable to let go of his childhood grudges).
I am sure that is true to some extent.
Although I have to give Lupin points for dressing Snape as Neville's grandmother to get rid of Neville's Boggart.  :clap: Do you think that Lupin knew in advance that Neville's Boggart would take the form of Snape?  Would Lupin have had the nerve to go through with the lesson (as we saw it happen) if Snape had not left the staff room at the start of the class?  :snapeboggart:
Clearly the temptation to make fun of Snape hasn't entirely gone away, as it is his suggestion to put Snape in a dress. He might have suggested something different if Snape was still in the room, though it would be heard to think what he could come up with without it being embarrassing to Snape. I don't think Lupin would know for sure what Neville's Boggart but he might have made some guesses beforehand in case it might be wise to intervene as he does with Harry.
I notice something about Lupin in this chapter that I continue to see hints of throughout the series, and I wonder if others have seen it as well.  Several times when he and Harry are having tea together, Harry gets the impression that Lupin has just read his mind about something.  It happens again in Chapter 10 when they are discussing Dementors.  I'm wondering if Lupin didn't have some skill as a Legilimens.  If you are curious about this, keep an eye out as you continue reading the series.  Perhaps I'm wrong and that Lupin is simply a kind, empathetic and perceptive person.  Or perhaps JKR intended at some point later in the series for Lupin to need these skills and so began inserting the hints of it here, but never followed through with that plot.  At any rate, it won't be the last time I see reference to something like this in the series.  :reading:
I think he is just naturally perceptive - that might include a bit of unconscious Legilimency but I doubt he would use it deliberately. He is probably also somewhat attuned to the way Harry thinks, having known James very well and Lily well also. Harry can generally predict accurately how Ron and Hermione will react to something, and I imagine Lupin could do the same thing with James, and probably also use that intuition to make a reasonable guess as to what Harry is thinking.
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March 23, 2014, 08:38:09 PM
Reply #11

paint it Black

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I think [Lupin] is just naturally perceptive - that might include a bit of unconscious Legilimency but I doubt he would use it deliberately. He is probably also somewhat attuned to the way Harry thinks, having known James very well and Lily well also. Harry can generally predict accurately how Ron and Hermione will react to something, and I imagine Lupin could do the same thing with James, and probably also use that intuition to make a reasonable guess as to what Harry is thinking.
I agree very much that it is in Lupin's character to be naturally perceptive.  I would not have thought that there was such a thing as "unconscious Legilimency", but if it exists I think Lupin probably uses it very well.

Another thing that I love about Lupin as a teacher that we see in this chapter: This is his first class with these students, but he seems to know them all by name.  So obviously part of his preparation for his class was not just to brush up on the material for the lesson, but also to familiarize himself with the students.  How can you not love a teacher who shows such respect for his class?  :)

Cuppa is discussing Harper Lee's Go Set a Watchman.  Please join us!
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March 23, 2014, 09:08:48 PM
Reply #12

roonwit

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I agree very much that it is in Lupin's character to be naturally perceptive.  I would not have thought that there was such a thing as "unconscious Legilimency", but if it exists I think Lupin probably uses it very well.
Tom Riddle seems to have that skill in the orphanage, and when facing Harry out of the back of Quirrell's head, where he couldn't use a wand to use proper Legilimency.
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May 24, 2014, 05:53:01 PM
Reply #13

Evreka

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1) Lupin knows about Harry’s aversion to tea leaves. Do the professors gossip?
Of course they talk about what goes on in their classes, particularly if something might have upset a student, I assume. Also Minerva and Remus were both part of the first Order of the Phoenix, so it makes sense that she's told him about Professor Trelawneys very unnecessary pronouncement targeting Harry. I'm sure she was quite outrageous over it and keen to vent it with a fellow Professor she trusts.

Further:
Quote from:  POA, page 116, BPE (Brittish Paperback Edition)
"I'm afraid -- but I daresay you've had enough of tea leaves?" [Lupin]
Harry looked at him. Lupin's eyes were twinkling.
"How did you know about that?" Harry asked.
"Professor McGonagall told me," said Lupin, passing Harry a chipped mug of tea. "You're not worried, are you?"

2) What does Harry’s boggart say about him?
That he fears fear above everything else, as Lupin also proclaims. It's interesting, because many times we fear silly things (either quite harmless things really, or things that are very unlikely to ever occur in our lives) but feeling fear is something we will do for certain, sooner or later, and we are prone to make bad decisions when we are afraid. So I think Remus is right in that Harry is wise to fear fear.

Also, young as Harry is, he has already had a lot of encounters of a fearsome nature, so he knows what he is afraid of, it isn't an unknown feeling that he worry over. He knows what it is like to live with fear.


3) Lupin and Snape seem like such polar opposites, so why is Lupin able to trust Snape when Harry isn’t?
Because he trusts Albus with his life; and Albus trusts Snape.


I see Harry as someone who's amazingly resilient in that he has such a terrible time growing up, with everything that happened to him and being a marked man by the most feared person in the wizarding world, yet somehow he is able to take everything in stride.  He is an orphan being raised by abusive relatives, but I don't see any indication that he is scared of them at all (he doesn't hesitate to talk back at or be cheeky with his aunt/uncle/cousin).  In the first two books we saw how he was able to face whatever danger that came his way.  So none of these physical dangers or enemies are his boggart.  The dementor, however, basically takes away his ability to deal with all these other things.  It takes away his resiliency, his happiness, his friendships, his capacity to love and forgive, his courage, etc., leaving him defenseless against all these other things that could hurt him.  As Lupin points out, the dementors affect Harry more than they affect others because after they take away all the "good" in one's life and leave all the "bad", Harry has more "bad" he has to deal with than everyone else.  But I think the flip side of this is also true, that Harry has an unusually large amount of "good" that the dementors can take from him, more than almost everyone else.
These are all very good points!   :thumbup:

I love how Lupin befriends Harry in this chapter.  This is, after all, the son of one of Lupin's dearest friends, and under different circumstances Harry would likely have grown up with Lupin being in his life.  :hug:
My thoughts, too! Finally Harry is reunited with one of those friends of his parents who would, under different circumstances, have had a probably pretty close relationship with Harry. I'm sure, Remus would have been a frequent and much anticipated guest in the Potter household.



I think that Lupin mostly suffers in silence as a werewolf, and that he is very grateful to have access to the potion that would prevent the extreme pain that comes with his transformation, and thus is grateful to Snape for making the potion. 
I may be wrong, but I think Jo has commented on this (and is agreeing with you ;) ) in some interview. Is this something you recognize too, roonwit, and others?


Although I have to give Lupin points for dressing Snape as Neville's grandmother to get rid of Neville's Boggart.  :clap: Do you think that Lupin knew in advance that Neville's Boggart would take the form of Snape?  Would Lupin have had the nerve to go through with the lesson (as we saw it happen) if Snape had not left the staff room at the start of the class?  :snapeboggart:
No, I don't think he had any clue as to what Neville's Boggart would be, but I also think it would have been unbearable for Neville had Snape not left, all things considered. But I wonder if Remus wouldn't have asked Severus to leave, had he not chosen to leave by his own accord. Surely the Professors don't usually oversee each others classes?


I notice something about Lupin in this chapter that I continue to see hints of throughout the series, and I wonder if others have seen it as well.  Several times when he and Harry are having tea together, Harry gets the impression that Lupin has just read his mind about something.  ...
I'm afraid I can't find that reference in this chapter?  ??? All I find is this:
Quote from: POA, page 116 BPE
Something of Harry's thoughts seemed to have shown on his face, because Lupin said, "Anything worrying you, Harry?"
I don't find it unlikely at all that his worry/discomfort did show, and as people keep going on about: Harry looks very much like James, even his "worried face" might be the same as James'. I think it is very likely something Remus could easily recognize.

He [Lupin] is probably also somewhat attuned to the way Harry thinks, having known James very well and Lily well also. Harry can generally predict accurately how Ron and Hermione will react to something, and I imagine Lupin could do the same thing with James, and probably also use that intuition to make a reasonable guess as to what Harry is thinking.
Good point that he also knew Lily, and all of them were in the first Order together, so it makes sense he'd know how both looked when worried. So he has every chance to recognize worry in Harry as well, even if he takes after Lily in how he show it.


Another thing that I love about Lupin as a teacher that we see in this chapter: This is his first class with these students, but he seems to know them all by name.  So obviously part of his preparation for his class was not just to brush up on the material for the lesson, but also to familiarize himself with the students.  How can you not love a teacher who shows such respect for his class?  :)
Also, he is one of few teachers at Hogwarts who explains things to his students before he wants them to be ready to handle whatever it is.  :hug: Of all teachers at Hogwarts, I think he is my number one favourite. Too bad he was only there one year!


I agree very much that it is in Lupin's character to be naturally perceptive.  I would not have thought that there was such a thing as "unconscious Legilimency", but if it exists I think Lupin probably uses it very well.
Tom Riddle seems to have that skill in the orphanage, and when facing Harry out of the back of Quirrell's head, where he couldn't use a wand to use proper Legilimency.
On the other hand everyone says that Tom Riddle was unusually gifted in this field...  ??? and he grew to become an expert on it. So others might not be able to do this?


« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:58:54 PM by Evreka »
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May 24, 2014, 08:30:26 PM
Reply #14

roonwit

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I think that Lupin mostly suffers in silence as a werewolf, and that he is very grateful to have access to the potion that would prevent the extreme pain that comes with his transformation, and thus is grateful to Snape for making the potion. 
I may be wrong, but I think Jo has commented on this (and is agreeing with you ;) ) in some interview. Is this something you recognize too, roonwit, and others?
Lupin says most of this himself
Quote
‘I neither like nor dislike Severus,’ said Lupin. ‘No, Harry, I am speaking the truth,’ he added, as Harry pulled a sceptical expression. ‘We shall never be bosom friends, perhaps; after all that happened between James and Sirius and Severus, there is too much bitterness there. But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I usually do at the full moon.’
In A Very Frosty Christmas in HBP.
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May 24, 2014, 09:24:11 PM
Reply #15

Evreka

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I think that Lupin mostly suffers in silence as a werewolf, and that he is very grateful to have access to the potion that would prevent the extreme pain that comes with his transformation, and thus is grateful to Snape for making the potion. 
I may be wrong, but I think Jo has commented on this (and is agreeing with you ;) ) in some interview. Is this something you recognize too, roonwit, and others?
Lupin says most of this himself
Quote
‘I neither like nor dislike Severus,’ said Lupin. ‘No, Harry, I am speaking the truth,’ he added, as Harry pulled a sceptical expression. ‘We shall never be bosom friends, perhaps; after all that happened between James and Sirius and Severus, there is too much bitterness there. But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I usually do at the full moon.’
In A Very Frosty Christmas in HBP.
Thanks for digging out where it came from! Even better authority: Lupin himself!  ;)
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