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Author Topic: Chapter Nine - Grim Defeat  (Read 2484 times)

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March 16, 2014, 07:40:04 PM

JaneMarple9

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Chapter Nine: Grim Defeat
(Chap Summary by twiddlethosedials )

Fan Art by Arkeo


The students spend the night in the Great Hall while the castle is searched, and Snape tells Dumbledore he believes someone on the inside is helping Sirius Black. Dumbledore disagrees. McGonagall assigns Harry extra protection so he can keep practicing Quidditch. Malfoy gets Slytherin’s match against Gryffindor switched to Hufflepuff so he can recover from his unfortunate Hippogriff injury. Snape teaches Defense Against the Dark Arts in Lupin’s conspicuous absence. And if that wasn’t bad enough, Dementors crash the Quidditch match, and Harry loses the Snitch to Cedric, the Nimbus 2000 to the Whomping Willow and his dignity to the school when the Dementors make him pass out.

A few questions to get you started:

1) Snape seems to do everything he can to discredit Lupin... are his actions in class unethical? How and why?

2) How could the Dementors disregard Dumbledore’s orders and enter the grounds? Couldn’t he keep them away by magic?

3) It’s the first time Harry’s ever lost a match (when he actually played, of course). How does the team deal with it? How do you feel about Wood’s reaction?



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March 17, 2014, 08:46:55 PM
Reply #1

roonwit

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1) Snape seems to do everything he can to discredit Lupin... are his actions in class unethical? How and why?
They are a bit. One teacher shouldn't really undermine another (though even McGonagall can't quite resist with Trelawney as do Dumbledore and Firenze), though I imagine Snape was also reflecting his much tougher marking. Ironically, I suspect this area of DADA may be one where Lupin knows more than Snape, who is wrong about where to find Kappas according to FB.
2) How could the Dementors disregard Dumbledore’s orders and enter the grounds? Couldn’t he keep them away by magic?
The Dementors are dark creatures, and are going to do whatever they can get away with. They are also answerable to The Ministry and not directly to Dumbledore, and although Dumbledore would probably like to keep the Dementors out of the grounds by magic (if that is possible), I imagine the Ministry would prefer the Dementors to have the flexibility to enter the grounds after Sirius Black if necessary.
3) It’s the first time Harry’s ever lost a match (when he actually played, of course). How does the team deal with it? How do you feel about Wood’s reaction?
They do a reasonable job of breaking it to him gently. I imagine Wood is dealing with his own disappointment, as this result makes it a lot less likely he will fulfill his dream of winning the house cup. It may also be that as a Keeper he gets less opportunity to keep himself warm, so he might need extra warming in the shower.
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March 18, 2014, 01:23:06 PM
Reply #2

siena

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Snape should be quite embarrassed that he got that fact wrong  ;)  It seems he didn't study Magical Creatures as well as he should have really. Hermione would have known probably but for once she seemed to have thought it wise not to say anything ...

And I agree with roonwit - teachers should leave criticism about each other for staff meetings. They shouldn't openly critise each other in class. And even Dumbledore and McGonagall l should either have raised their concern about Trelawney when alone with her or not all.

But even Snape can only really find reason to critise Lupin's lack of organisation and leeway in marking - but he cannot find any reason to critise Lupin's general knowledge of the subject ... underlining the fact that Lupin really knows his stuff.
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March 21, 2014, 09:51:47 PM
Reply #3

roonwit

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And I agree with roonwit - teachers should leave criticism about each other for staff meetings. They shouldn't openly critise each other in class. And even Dumbledore and McGonagall l should either have raised their concern about Trelawney when alone with her or not all.
To be fair, both Dumbledore and McGonagall are guarded in their criticism, doing it more by implication. I imagine McGonagall would have expressed her opinions to Trelawney directly, though Dumbledore probably hasn't (except by implication) as he doesn't want to lose confidence and leave as doing so would put her in danger.
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March 23, 2014, 09:04:15 PM
Reply #4

paint it Black

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1) Snape seems to do everything he can to discredit Lupin... are his actions in class unethical? How and why?

I don't think Snape gives one whit for "ethical"; he's probably been just waiting for the chance to take Lupin's class so he could send them straight to page 394 and teach them all about werewolves.  I'm half-surprised that he didn't ask Hermione (for once) to share everything the textbook had to offer on the subject.  The situation reminds me a bit of how Kreacher the house-elf used to look for loopholes on how he could share information on the Order members' activities in OotP without violating his master's instructions.  Dumbledore no doubt set down ground rules for Snape in regards to Lupin's professorship at the school, including (perhaps, especially) not revealing Lupin's secret identity.  But Snape was determined to find a way around these restrictions to get Lupin out of the school.  This is far less ethical than just whining to the students about what a lousy teacher Lupin is, in my opinion.

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March 25, 2014, 03:42:42 PM
Reply #5

HealerOne

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I do agree that Snape is being extremely unprofessional and even childish in how he tries to get back at Lupin. I think it's rather admirable of Hermione not to spill the beans when she does put 2+2 together. We now know that Snape really doesn't want the DADA position because he knows it's cursed, so what really is his motivation for wanting Lupin's 'little furry problem' exposed?   :hmm:  Honestly, I can only say that what I come up with is that childish revenge for what Lupin's friend did to him and nothing more. If anyone else has a good reason for his betrayal please help me to understand... :snapeneville:
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March 25, 2014, 04:30:56 PM
Reply #6

siena

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I think Snape's behaviour  here really has been discussed to death before, and there isn't really much gained by me trying to stretch it further. However, one thing that could be added because nobody has mentioned it here yet (though it has been mentioned before in discussions about this chapter before): Snape, in his bitterness and guilt, believes Lupin to be in league with Black, a dangerous mass murderer who sold his beloved Lily to Voldemort. Therefore I dare saying there is more to Snape's hostility than childishness. Also, Snape believes that Lupin was part of James' and Sirius' plan to lure Snape into mortal danger as a young boy. We shouldn't forget that.

 Anyway, I do find what you are saying about Snape not wanting the DADA job much more  interesting. If he really doesn't want it, why does he apply for it every year ? Is it one of the many acts Snape is forced to perform to be kept in Voldemort's good books ?

In HBP, Snape's application is successful - why do you think this is ? Does Dumbledore give him the position because Snape would be excempt from the curse as a (fake) Death Eater and supposed spy for Voldemort ? Dumbledore really wants Slughorn to work at Hogwarts - maybe he think if Slughorn would teach DADA, he surely wouldn't last longer than a year, so it's better to give Snape the job ?  :hmm:

Snape teaches DADA for a year - but afterwards he doesn't quit, but becomes Headmaster (apparently on Voldemort's orders, but really I think because Dumbledore  wanted him to look after the school once it fell into Voldemort's hands.)

I think you put your finger on something that hasn't been discussed at all yet as far as I can tell, HealerOne. I'm curious to hear what you all think.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 05:45:12 PM by siena »
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March 25, 2014, 10:35:11 PM
Reply #7

roonwit

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Anyway, I do find what you are saying about Snape not wanting the DADA job much more  interesting. If he really doesn't want it, why does he apply for it every year ? Is it one of the many acts Snape is forced to perform to be kept in Voldemort's good books ?
Knowing it is cursed wouldn't stop Snape from wanting to teach DADA even if he knew he probably couldn't do it for more than one year.
In HBP, Snape's application is successful - why do you think this is ? Does Dumbledore give him the position because Snape would be excempt from the curse as a (fake) Death Eater and supposed spy for Voldemort ? Dumbledore really wants Slughorn to work at Hogwarts - maybe he think if Slughorn would teach DADA, he surely wouldn't last longer than a year, so it's better to give Snape the job ?  :hmm:
Slughorn was a Potions teacher and it is unlikely he could be persuaded to come back to teach a new subject. I think Dumbledore is thinking ahead, as he expects to be dead by the end of the year, with a good chance Voldemort would take over in time to make his favoured Death Eater Headmaster to replace him. so the curse need not produce a bad result for Snape.
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March 26, 2014, 04:35:00 PM
Reply #8

siena

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Knowing it is cursed wouldn't stop Snape from wanting to teach DADA even if he knew he probably couldn't do it for more than one year.    - roonwit, March 25, 2014

I rather think that Snape was exempt from the curse because Voldemort would have wanted him to stay at Hogwarts, no matter which job he got. I don't think Snape would have applied otherwise, because he knew how important it was for him to be at Hogwarts to help Dumbledore protect Harry.


Slughorn was a Potions teacher and it is unlikely he could be persuaded to come back to teach a new subject.  - roonwit, March 25, 2014

But he was very knowledgeable in the Dark Arts. But then again maybe he wouldn't want to teach as he still felt guilty about the information about horcruxes he gave Tom Riddle.
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March 27, 2014, 11:06:26 PM
Reply #9

HealerOne

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I think Snape's behaviour  here really has been discussed to death before, and there isn't really much gained by me trying to stretch it further. However, one thing that could be added because nobody has mentioned it here yet (though it has been mentioned before in discussions about this chapter before): Snape, in his bitterness and guilt, believes Lupin to be in league with Black, a dangerous mass murderer who sold his beloved Lily to Voldemort. Therefore I dare saying there is more to Snape's hostility than childishness. Also, Snape believes that Lupin was part of James' and Sirius' plan to lure Snape into mortal danger as a young boy. We shouldn't forget that.

I'm not convinced that Snape thought Lupin was in cahoots with Black about giving up James (and Lily) to Voldemort. Snape didn't particularly like Lupin, but I just don't get from Snape the same antipathy towards Lupin as he had towards James and Sirius. The other thing that keeps me from being convinced is that DD was staunchly behind Lupin and although Snape had some questions about it at the beginning of the year, DD remained unmoved that Lupin was as blind-sighted by the apparent sell out of James and Lily as everyone else was.

As far as the argument  that Lupin had been part of Sirius's prank that could have killed Snape. Honestly how could Snape have really blamed Lupin for that prank? I see Lupin is as much a victim there as Snape was. He couldn't help turning into a vicious 'killer' at the full moon and he certainly didn't want to be 'outed' as a werewolf to the whole school! Of the Marauders - Lupin would have had the most to loose from such a prank - especially if Snape had died or had been seriously hurt. Sirius was using Lupin in the worst way with that prank. James was right to have stopped it.

Anyway, I do find what you are saying about Snape not wanting the DADA job much more  interesting. If he really doesn't want it, why does he apply for it every year ? Is it one of the many acts Snape is forced to perform to be kept in Voldemort's good books ?

In HBP, Snape's application is successful - why do you think this is ? Does Dumbledore give him the position because Snape would be excempt from the curse as a (fake) Death Eater and supposed spy for Voldemort ? Dumbledore really wants Slughorn to work at Hogwarts - maybe he think if Slughorn would teach DADA, he surely wouldn't last longer than a year, so it's better to give Snape the job ?  :hmm:

Snape teaches DADA for a year - but afterwards he doesn't quit, but becomes Headmaster (apparently on Voldemort's orders, but really I think because Dumbledore  wanted him to look after the school once it fell into Voldemort's hands.)

I think you put your finger on something that hasn't been discussed at all yet as far as I can tell, HealerOne. I'm curious to hear what you all think.

I believe that Snape only applied for the job each year to keep up the facade that he was a loyal Death Eater - that he wanted the job so he could get students to follow the Dark Arts - a convenient story to convince DE and Voldemort he was loyal to him. DD was in on that and played to the show. Once DD knows that he is going to die from the curse, He does two things: 1) he gives the DADA job to Snape and 2) he brings Sluggy in to teach Potions again. Sluggy's subject was POtions not DADA . There would be no way he could have convinced Sluggy to come back if it wasn't for teaching his favorite subject - Potions, not DADA. DD is desperate to get Slughorn's memory, so in order to get him back to teach - he has to teach Potions.  DD thinks that due to the curse on the DADA job, Snape can can only hold it one year which fits in nicely with DD wanting Snape to kill him. This gets Snape into the good graces of Voldemort and proves his apparent loyalty to Voldy. Remember that Snape fled the school after DD died (that's as good as quitting in my book!) and was appointed back to the school by Voldy's gang soon after the DE had taken over the MoM.

(DD has Snape swear he will look after the school once DD is gone, so Snape then convinces Voldy that the best place for him after DD is dead is as the Headmaster at Hogwarts.)  :) That's my take on the whole scenario! Good discussion, all! :clap: Anyone else have ideas on this?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 12:08:59 AM by HealerOne »
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March 28, 2014, 11:35:43 AM
Reply #10

siena

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I'm not convinced that Snape thought Lupin was in cahoots with Black about giving up James (and Lily) to Voldemort. Snape didn't particularly like Lupin, but I just don't get from Snape the same antipathy towards Lupin as he had towards James and Sirius.  - Healer One, 27 March 2017

Well, I would say his hostile behaviour towards Lupin says otherwise.


As far as the argument  that Lupin had been part of Sirius's prank that could have killed Snape. Honestly how could Snape have really blamed Lupin for that prank? I see Lupin is as much a victim there as Snape was  - Healer One, 27 March, 2014


I guess it is part of Snape's twisted thinking. But I agree - Lupin was very much the victim as well, and Sirius obviously failed to see this. It is beyond me how blind-sighted Sirius was here - he was always described as a really smart boy, but here I do seriously doubt his mental faculties. He did not only risk killing another human being but also put his best friend's future under threat.
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March 28, 2014, 11:26:30 PM
Reply #11

roonwit

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Knowing it is cursed wouldn't stop Snape from wanting to teach DADA even if he knew he probably couldn't do it for more than one year.    - roonwit, March 25, 2014
I rather think that Snape was exempt from the curse because Voldemort would have wanted him to stay at Hogwarts, no matter which job he got. I don't think Snape would have applied otherwise, because he knew how important it was for him to be at Hogwarts to help Dumbledore protect Harry.
That would depend on how Voldemort was feeling when he cast the curse as it may not have occurred to him that in might be to have a death eater in the post.
Slughorn was a Potions teacher and it is unlikely he could be persuaded to come back to teach a new subject.  - roonwit, March 25, 2014
But he was very knowledgeable in the Dark Arts. But then again maybe he wouldn't want to teach as he still felt guilty about the information about horcruxes he gave Tom Riddle.
I don't think we can conclude that knowledge about about one piece of dark magic means he has the range of knowledge that would be needed to teach DADA well (though he might still have done better than some who did get the post) or the desire to do so.
I'm not convinced that Snape thought Lupin was in cahoots with Black about giving up James (and Lily) to Voldemort. Snape didn't particularly like Lupin, but I just don't get from Snape the same antipathy towards Lupin as he had towards James and Sirius.  - Healer One, 27 March 2017
Well, I would say his hostile behaviour towards Lupin says otherwise.
Snape doesn't like Lupin because he assumes Lupin knew of Sirius' trick in the same way he assumes James has foreknowledge of it. I don't see Snape suspecting Lupin of involvement in the Potters' deaths, particularly because only the secret keeper (thought to be Sirius) could betray them. I do think however think that Lupin's friendship with Sirius might mean he would help Sirius get into the castle, particularly as Sirius seems to bypassing all security precautions so inside help would seem likely.
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March 30, 2014, 10:45:42 PM
Reply #12

paint it Black

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I do agree that Snape is being extremely unprofessional and even childish in how he tries to get back at Lupin. I think it's rather admirable of Hermione not to spill the beans when she does put 2+2 together. ...

I do wonder why Hermione chose not to share this information with Harry and Ron.  She does chide them about not knowing at one point, and refuses to tell them anything further because she is mad at Ron for trying to kick Crookshanks on Christmas Day (and Harry and Ron are mad at her for telling McGonagall about the Firebolt).  But she had figured out the truth several days before this, when she did the essay for Snape, and could have told them any time after that, or any time after they had made up.  Why does she feel that Harry and Ron should not know about this?

Do you think that Hermione, in retrospect, concluded what the potion was that Snape had made for Lupin?  Would that have alerted her to the fact that the staff (or at least some of them) knew of Lupin's condition, and perhaps have changed her view of Snape slightly?  :hmm:

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March 30, 2014, 11:21:04 PM
Reply #13

roonwit

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I do wonder why Hermione chose not to share this information with Harry and Ron.  She does chide them about not knowing at one point, and refuses to tell them anything further because she is mad at Ron for trying to kick Crookshanks on Christmas Day (and Harry and Ron are mad at her for telling McGonagall about the Firebolt).  But she had figured out the truth several days before this, when she did the essay for Snape, and could have told them any time after that, or any time after they had made up.  Why does she feel that Harry and Ron should not know about this?
I think she sees it as a secret to be kept and the best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone. In addition I imagine that she has worked out that Ron would act badly and possibly give away the secret merely by his reaction to hearing the news.
Do you think that Hermione, in retrospect, concluded what the potion was that Snape had made for Lupin?  Would that have alerted her to the fact that the staff (or at least some of them) knew of Lupin's condition, and perhaps have changed her view of Snape slightly?  :hmm:
I think the potion would help her decide to keep Lupin's secret, as once she worked out from Snape's essay that Lupin was a werewolf I am sure she also worked out what the potion Snape gave Lupin was, and therefore that the staff knew. This would be later be reinforced by Dumbledore discussing Lupin being ill and taking the potion over the Christmas meal. Hermione was generally more trusting of Snape than the other two because she does bear in mind the times when Snape was helping Harry, and when they suspected Snape and were proved wrong.
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March 31, 2014, 05:22:15 PM
Reply #14

HealerOne

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 :-\ Good ideas guys on Hermione and her keeping a secret. I had sort of thought of this as Hermione's need to keep a promise. She was always adamant about when you make a promise you had to keep it, so I thought this was a similar circumstance. She knew something about Lupin that was a secret, so she didn't want to break faith with Lupin partly because he had been so kind to Neville and Harry and also had praised her. Once she thought that Lupin had broken faith with Harry and was in cahoots with Sirius she gladly let the cat out of the bag.

That was a good observation that Hermione must have realized the potion Snape was giving Lupin was the werewolf potion. When she realized DD knew of Lupin's condition she must have been even more compelled to keep Lupin's secret because that would have meant that DD trusted Lupin even with his 'furry little problem'.
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April 03, 2014, 11:28:35 PM
Reply #15

paint it Black

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I do wonder why Hermione chose not to share this information with Harry and Ron.  She does chide them about not knowing at one point, and refuses to tell them anything further because she is mad at Ron for trying to kick Crookshanks on Christmas Day (and Harry and Ron are mad at her for telling McGonagall about the Firebolt).  But she had figured out the truth several days before this, when she did the essay for Snape, and could have told them any time after that, or any time after they had made up.  Why does she feel that Harry and Ron should not know about this?
I think she sees it as a secret to be kept and the best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone. In addition I imagine that she has worked out that Ron would act badly and possibly give away the secret merely by his reaction to hearing the news.
I agree that Hermione is a very ethical person, and if asked, would certainly keep a secret faithfully.  For example, she doesn't reveal that she is using the Timeturner, until it is necessary to save Sirius with it.  I guess I just see it as a big contrast with what Harry would do.  Had he learned that Lupin was a werewolf, I think he would have told Ron and Hermione immediately.  He knows that he can trust them completely and that they would not do anything harmful with this information; I think Hermione would generally think the same way.  It almost seems like Hermione was about to tell the boys when she was tutting them for not knowing about it.  Had they behaved kindly toward her and tried to make up with her at that point, I think she might have.  But as the boys only showed that they were going to continue being frosty toward her, she kept her mouth shut.  After that point, I suppose that she figured that if the staff knew and were instructed not to tell, than she would hold herself to that standard.  And as HealerOne pointed out, when it became necessary for Ron and Harry to know (at the point where she first thought Lupin might be a danger to them), she did spill the beans.

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June 01, 2014, 11:24:59 AM
Reply #16

Evreka

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2) How could the Dementors disregard Dumbledore’s orders and enter the grounds? Couldn’t he keep them away by magic?
I don't think the Dementors are at Hogwarts on Dumbledore's orders, I think they are there due to an order from the MoM. I suspect they are ordered to stay at the gates because Albus and the MoM has reached a compromise, not because this is an order from Albus to the Dementors. I also don't think the MoM has full control over them and that these dark creatures occasionally disregard given orders. From what we learn in the books as the series continues, I also think a Patronus is the only thing that work against them - as far as magical shields go, and that the only way to keep them out, is to surround the castle grounds with Patronuses, which seems practically impossible.


3) It’s the first time Harry’s ever lost a match (when he actually played, of course). How does the team deal with it? How do you feel about Wood’s reaction?
I think Wood is trying to face the seemingly unavoidable fact that he will never win the Quidditch Cup in all his time at Hogwarts. As this seem to mean the world to him, I think he is trying to come to terms with the realisation that his dream will never come true...  :'(  :(  And I believe him when he claims to not blame Harry, although he could have said it a bit more convincingly, I am sure it is his disappointment at the loss/fate that makes his voice so defeated. He gave it everything he had - and it didn't work...   :console:

That said, his fanatics for winning this competition means his priorities gets all skewed at times, and I do think he ought to sort out his prioroties at times!  ;)

As for the rest of the team, they are far more worried about Harry's life and well-being than whether the match was won or lost - until they know Harry will get well, which is the by far more natural and human reaction.  :hug:
 


1) Snape seems to do everything he can to discredit Lupin... are his actions in class unethical? How and why?
They are a bit. One teacher shouldn't really undermine another (though even McGonagall can't quite resist with Trelawney as do Dumbledore and Firenze), though I imagine Snape was also reflecting his much tougher marking. Ironically, I suspect this area of DADA may be one where Lupin knows more than Snape, who is wrong about where to find Kappas according to FB.
I agree with roonwit, although I think there is a clear distinction in how the others discredit Trelawney versus how Snape goes on about Lupin. Firenze is not specifically disregarding Trelawney, as much as humans on the whole; Albus comments about Trelawney are at least only given to one pupil and in rather special circumstances; McGonagall has every reason to get mad at this "teacher" who builds her reputation on scaring a student a year that he is about to drop dead at any minute!  :annoyed: And this year, in particular, when Harry is (supposedly) in grave danger, it must aggrieve Minerva to no end that Trelawney chose an already very troubled kid to target. It's in the whole class's best interest that they do not place too much confidence in Trelawney's predictions, so she's sort of up against a wall. How could she possibly dispel the unease Trelawneys "Grim" has caused, without questioning her?   

Snape, on the other hand, moves about a class and make snide remarks about Lupin, his teaching methods, and his markings for the sake of it. Further, this is remarks he makes about the teacher, for whom he is filling in! I think it is both unethical and rather stupid behaviour - surely he should understand that this won't alienate the class from Lupin? If anything, it makes him come off as even more unpleasant - and that's all it does. And I love the comment in FB  :hearts: which proves that he is even wrong on at least one account in this diatribe.

It's sad though, that the grown-up Snape isn't more in control of his past, than that Lupin's very appearance (and idea of how best to make Snape look harmless to Neville) will reduce him to this bitter, and none too clever, attempt at revenge.  :shake: Especially, as he had something else up his sleeve, too:

I don't think Snape gives one whit for "ethical"; he's probably been just waiting for the chance to take Lupin's class so he could send them straight to page 394 and teach them all about werewolves.  ...  The situation reminds me a bit of how Kreacher the house-elf used to look for loopholes on how he could share information on the Order members' activities in OotP without violating his master's instructions.  Dumbledore no doubt set down ground rules for Snape in regards to Lupin's professorship at the school, including (perhaps, especially) not revealing Lupin's secret identity.  But Snape was determined to find a way around these restrictions to get Lupin out of the school.  This is far less ethical than just whining to the students about what a lousy teacher Lupin is, in my opinion.
That's a very good point, paint it Black. This is his intended, true, revenge. So with this coming as a bonus at the end, why the snide remarks during class before it?

And I agree, it does take the unethical part to new extreme heights.  :annoyed:

Not least as he as good as tell them outright:
Quote from:  Severus Snape, page 129, POA BPE
Well, well, well, I never thought I'd meet a third-year class who wouldn't even recognize a werewolf when they saw one.
:mcgonagall2:


.... send them straight to page 394 and teach them all about werewolves.  I'm half-surprised that he didn't ask Hermione (for once) to share everything the textbook had to offer on the subject. 
I doubt the conclusion could be learned from this text alone, or Hermione would have known it already. But she tell us at the end that she understood it when she made the essay, which leads me to the conclusion that you needed more study in other books besides, before you could put two and two together, on this.


I do agree that Snape is being extremely unprofessional and even childish in how he tries to get back at Lupin. ... We now know that Snape really doesn't want the DADA position because he knows it's cursed, so what really is his motivation for wanting Lupin's 'little furry problem' exposed?   :hmm:  Honestly, I can only say that what I come up with is that childish revenge for what Lupin's friend did to him and nothing more. If anyone else has a good reason for his betrayal please help me to understand... :snapeneville:
The interesting part here is that I think he did wanted it. This is the position he applied for when he first came back as a teacher, and Albus gave him the Potions position instead. But why apply for it in the first place? Why accept it in HBP, if he knew it was cursed? Possibly Snape believed that Voldemort would lift the curse if he, a Death Eater from Voldemort's inner most circle, got the position?

That said, this has been true any year, yet he never took on even the completly empty-headed fool  :jester: of Lockhart, this way. So I too, think it is fuelled primarily by his past relationship with Lupin.


Snape, in his bitterness and guilt, believes Lupin to be in league with Black, a dangerous mass murderer who sold his beloved Lily to Voldemort. Therefore I dare saying there is more to Snape's hostility than childishness. ... We shouldn't forget that.
Interresting....   ???  Well, it does give an ulterior motive to his hatred, but I still think his open display in class is a childish way to go about it.


Also, Snape believes that Lupin was part of James' and Sirius' plan to lure Snape into mortal danger as a young boy. We shouldn't forget that.
This, I really don't understand how he can blame on Lupin. That it is enough for a life-long hatred towards James and Sirius is one thing. But Lupin is clearly innocent here.

As far as the argument  that Lupin had been part of Sirius's prank that could have killed Snape. Honestly how could Snape have really blamed Lupin for that prank? I see Lupin is as much a victim there as Snape was. He couldn't help turning into a vicious 'killer' at the full moon and he certainly didn't want to be 'outed' as a werewolf to the whole school! Of the Marauders - Lupin would have had the most to loose from such a prank - especially if Snape had died or had been seriously hurt. Sirius was using Lupin in the worst way with that prank. James was right to have stopped it.
Actually this is the reason why I don't understand Sirius at all, here. That he had no regard for Severus is perhaps not so surprising (not that I like it), but as HealerOne says, he risked ruining everything for one of his best friends!  :furious: If Severus had died or been bitten, what did he think would have happened to Remus?

I guess it is part of Snape's twisted thinking. But I agree - Lupin was very much the victim as well, and Sirius obviously failed to see this. It is beyond me how blind-sighted Sirius was here - he was always described as a really smart boy, but here I do seriously doubt his mental faculties. He did not only risk killing another human being but also put his best friend's future under threat.
Precisely.


In HBP, Snape's application is successful - why do you think this is ? Does Dumbledore give him the position because Snape would be excempt from the curse as a (fake) Death Eater and supposed spy for Voldemort ? Dumbledore really wants Slughorn to work at Hogwarts - maybe he think if Slughorn would teach DADA, he surely wouldn't last longer than a year, so it's better to give Snape the job ?  :hmm:
I think it is much simpler than this for Albus. He is out of other options:
1) He MUST procure the missing Memory from Slughorn, and he has come to the conclusion that there is only one way to achieve it: To let Harry worm it out of him. For this, Harry needs to be able to spend a lot of time with Slughorn, so Slughorn must come to Hogwarts.
2) The only way to achieve it would be to bring him back as a teacher, and he only teaches one subject: Potions.
3) The old Potion teacher will not object to take over the DADA position; which also solves the problem that no one else is interested in that post anymore. It was getting increasingly difficult in the later years as it was: with Voldemort rumoured to have returned last year, he could find no one (so the Ministry forced Umbridge on him), this year, when the war is upon them, there is no one else to choose from. And it becomes increasingly important for the students to learn this subject.
Hence, Albus has no choice, whatsoever.


I do wonder why Hermione chose not to share this information [Lupin is a werewolf] with Harry and Ron.  ...  But she had figured out the truth several days before this, when she did the essay for Snape, and could have told them any time after that, or any time after they had made up.  Why does she feel that Harry and Ron should not know about this?

I think she sees it as a secret to be kept and the best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone. In addition I imagine that she has worked out that Ron would act badly and possibly give away the secret merely by his reaction to hearing the news.
I agree that she realises this is a secret that is better kept, but I also think it is because this subject does not come up between the trio at any time when they are at speaking terms with each other.

Originally, when she made her essay, and realised this, Ron and Harry had yet to start theirs, and Hermione never let them copy her homework. I think she sat on this info, because it was part of a homework piece. When Ron and Harry made their homeworks, it may or may not have come up, depending on how deep you had to dig to get it, but as they never did their essays, Hermione never told them. At the time they make up, there's a lot of water under this bridge, and Hermione must long ago have reached the conclusion that Lupin poses no threat to Harry, as she hasn't spoken up about it, so why would she bring it up then?

Until, of course, the moment where she believes that he poses a threat.


Another thing
We get a new warning that something is up with Crookshanks in this chapter, as Harry finds him trying to sneak into his dormitory when he wakes up way to early on the morning of the Quidditch match. Why, indeed, would a normal cat be so intent to sneak into that dormitory precisely?  :mcgonagall2:
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 11:41:11 AM by Evreka »
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June 01, 2014, 02:52:45 PM
Reply #17

HealerOne

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I do agree that Snape is being extremely unprofessional and even childish in how he tries to get back at Lupin. ... We now know that Snape really doesn't want the DADA position because he knows it's cursed, so what really is his motivation for wanting Lupin's 'little furry problem' exposed?   :hmm:  Honestly, I can only say that what I come up with is that childish revenge for what Lupin's friend did to him and nothing more. If anyone else has a good reason for his betrayal please help me to understand... :snapeneville:
The interesting part here is that I think he did wanted it. This is the position he applied for when he first came back as a teacher, and Albus gave him the Potions position instead. But why apply for it in the first place? Why accept it in HBP, if he knew it was cursed? Possibly Snape believed that Voldemort would lift the curse if he, a Death Eater from Voldemort's inner most circle, got the position?

In HBP, Snape's application is successful - why do you think this is ? Does Dumbledore give him the position because Snape would be excempt from the curse as a (fake) Death Eater and supposed spy for Voldemort ? Dumbledore really wants Slughorn to work at Hogwarts - maybe he think if Slughorn would teach DADA, he surely wouldn't last longer than a year, so it's better to give Snape the job ?  :hmm:
I think it is much simpler than this for Albus. He is out of other options:
1) He MUST procure the missing Memory from Slughorn, and he has come to the conclusion that there is only one way to achieve it: To let Harry worm it out of him. For this, Harry needs to be able to spend a lot of time with Slughorn, so Slughorn must come to Hogwarts.
2) The only way to achieve it would be to bring him back as a teacher, and he only teaches one subject: Potions.
3) The old Potion teacher will not object to take over the DADA position; which also solves the problem that no one else is interested in that post anymore. It was getting increasingly difficult in the later years as it was: with Voldemort rumoured to have returned last year, he could find no one (so the Ministry forced Umbridge on him), this year, when the war is upon them, there is no one else to choose from. And it becomes increasingly important for the students to learn this subject.
Hence, Albus has no choice, whatsoever.

All interesting theories, but I think we are forgetting the most important reason that DD allowed Snape to take the DADA position. DD was dying from the curse imposed by the ring and he knew that before the year was out he had made Snape promise that he, Snape, would kill him (DD). Obviously, Snape then would be outed as a DE and therefore the school would be without a Potionmaster as well as a DADA teacher. Therefore DD 'kills 2 birds with one stone' when he recruits Slughorn into the Potionmaster position: he gets a great PotionMaster who happens to need some protection from the DE and Slughorn also brings along the special memory that is the last piece of the puzzle about the Horcruxes (So Harry can 'worm that out of him') and; the DADA position gets filled for one more year by someone very competent. As you said, this also avoids the problem of the Ministry forcing some incompetent fool on the school.
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June 25, 2014, 09:34:50 AM
Reply #18

Evreka

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I do agree that Snape is being extremely unprofessional and even childish in how he tries to get back at Lupin. ... We now know that Snape really doesn't want the DADA position because he knows it's cursed, so what really is his motivation for wanting Lupin's 'little furry problem' exposed?   :hmm:  Honestly, I can only say that what I come up with is that childish revenge for what Lupin's friend did to him and nothing more. If anyone else has a good reason for his betrayal please help me to understand... :snapeneville:
The interesting part here is that I think he did wanted it. This is the position he applied for when he first came back as a teacher, and Albus gave him the Potions position instead. But why apply for it in the first place? Why accept it in HBP, if he knew it was cursed? Possibly Snape believed that Voldemort would lift the curse if he, a Death Eater from Voldemort's inner most circle, got the position?

In HBP, Snape's application is successful - why do you think this is ? Does Dumbledore give him the position because Snape would be excempt from the curse as a (fake) Death Eater and supposed spy for Voldemort ? Dumbledore really wants Slughorn to work at Hogwarts - maybe he think if Slughorn would teach DADA, he surely wouldn't last longer than a year, so it's better to give Snape the job ?  :hmm:
I think it is much simpler than this for Albus. He is out of other options:
1) He MUST procure the missing Memory from Slughorn, and he has come to the conclusion that there is only one way to achieve it: To let Harry worm it out of him. For this, Harry needs to be able to spend a lot of time with Slughorn, so Slughorn must come to Hogwarts.
2) The only way to achieve it would be to bring him back as a teacher, and he only teaches one subject: Potions.
3) The old Potion teacher will not object to take over the DADA position; which also solves the problem that no one else is interested in that post anymore. It was getting increasingly difficult in the later years as it was: with Voldemort rumoured to have returned last year, he could find no one (so the Ministry forced Umbridge on him), this year, when the war is upon them, there is no one else to choose from. And it becomes increasingly important for the students to learn this subject.
Hence, Albus has no choice, whatsoever.
All interesting theories, but I think we are forgetting the most important reason that DD allowed Snape to take the DADA position. DD was dying from the curse imposed by the ring and he knew that before the year was out he had made Snape promise that he, Snape, would kill him (DD). Obviously, Snape then would be outed as a DE and therefore the school would be without a Potionmaster as well as a DADA teacher. Therefore DD 'kills 2 birds with one stone' when he recruits Slughorn into the Potionmaster position: he gets a great PotionMaster who happens to need some protection from the DE and Slughorn also brings along the special memory that is the last piece of the puzzle about the Horcruxes (So Harry can 'worm that out of him') and; the DADA position gets filled for one more year by someone very competent. As you said, this also avoids the problem of the Ministry forcing some incompetent fool on the school.
You're right, that probably also weighed in pretty strongly, I tend to forget how early he knew that...
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