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Author Topic: Chapter Twelve: The Patronus  (Read 910 times)

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March 27, 2014, 07:01:26 PM

JaneMarple9

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Chapter Twelve: The Patronus
(Chap Summary by twiddlethosedials )

:lupin:

Harry and Ron hold a grudge over Hermione getting the broom confiscated. Wood’s worried about Quidditch (of course), but excited about the Firebolt. Lupin and Harry get working on the Patronus Charm, and after a couple attempts with not-happy-enough memories, on the third try, Harry holds the Boggart/Dementor at bay. Slytherin beats Ravenclaw at Quidditch, which gives Gryffindor a chance to stay in the running for the Cup. After a few more goes at holding off Boggart/Dementors, McGonagall gives Harry his Firebolt back, Neville loses his password list, and Scabbers disappears in a mystery of blood-stained sheet and ginger cat fur.

A few questions to get you started:
1) If the Boggart isn’t a real Dementor, why does it still affect Harry so profoundly?

2) Lupin asks Harry if he really thinks anyone deserves the Dementor’s Kiss, to which Harry replies, “For some things.” What does the question say about Lupin? What does the answer say about Harry?

3) Which is creating more stress for Hermione - her workload, or the tiff with Ron?



"There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with a really big library"
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March 28, 2014, 11:04:27 PM
Reply #1

roonwit

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1) If the Boggart isn’t a real Dementor, why does it still affect Harry so profoundly?
It seems the Boggart can take on the magic abilities (at least to some extent) of whatever it appears as, though that might be limited to magical abilities that are part of the person's fear.
2) Lupin asks Harry if he really thinks anyone deserves the Dementor’s Kiss, to which Harry replies, “For some things.” What does the question say about Lupin? What does the answer say about Harry?
I wonder if Lupin is sure about his own answer to that question as it is a terrible fate but he believes Sirius was responsible for the betrayal and death of close friends. I think Harry is still in the mood for revenge, though hasn't yet had to face what it really means.
3) Which is creating more stress for Hermione - her workload, or the tiff with Ron?
I think it is mostly her workload, though her estrangement with Ron and Harry isn't helping either.
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April 01, 2014, 02:19:06 PM
Reply #2

ginginkat

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The Boggart plays on the individual’s fears and Harry having first hand experience with the Dementors seem to make the Boggart’s job easier.  Harry is feeling the fear as if a real Dementor is present.  His eyes see the threat and his mind takes over.  The effect is just as strong on Harry even though the situation not the real thing.  His mind and his emotions are controlling the situation more than the Boggart.
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April 01, 2014, 10:40:49 PM
Reply #3

Rudius Hagrid

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Quote
2) Lupin asks Harry if he really thinks anyone deserves the Dementor’s Kiss, to which Harry replies, “For some things.” What does the question say about Lupin? What does the answer say about Harry?

Me think Lupin have con-flict-ting feelings about Dementor kiss.  It like Cookie have con-flict-ting feelings about which is better: Chocolate Chip or Oreo cookie.  Me think Lupin angry with Sirius but he also only friend left and he feel lonely.  Maybe Lupin being good teacher and making Harry think about con-se-quences of what he think is good idea.  It easy to say "I believe this" or "I believe that" in heat of moment but if you think about what living with that descision means then maybe you think again about what you really believe.

When Harry find out Wormtail not dead but real spy; him not want Lupin and Sirius to kill him - when time come to make permanent descision then him not believing in capitol punishment.

Now Cookie must make decision.  Me like Oreo cookie in milk but Me also like Chocolate chip cookie.  But me can eat sooo many Oreo cookies.  Me love to eat Chocolate Chip cookies....
:hagrid: Welcome to the Discussion Station!! :hagrid:
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April 02, 2014, 02:35:00 PM
Reply #4

siena

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2) Lupin asks Harry if he really thinks anyone deserves the Dementor’s Kiss, to which Harry replies, “For some things.” What does the question say about Lupin? What does the answer say about Harry?




Lupin is a very mature person, who has suffered much in life. It made him aware of the tricky balance of how we should punish people who committed crimes. Does the eye-for-an-eye mantra really work ? What good would it do if Sirius was subjected to the Dementor's kiss ? Would it do James And Lily Potter justice ? I think it is a similar question we have to face in the Muggle world about the Death Penalty, or court decisions where the victim  is allowed to get revenge. Some time ago, a man poured acid into the face of a woman, it destroyed her face and she lost her eyesight. The court decided that she could get her revenge by being officially allowed to use acid on one of this man's eyes. She decided against carrying out her right., a very brave and wise decision in my opinion, because: Would it really have solved anything, would it have easied this woman's fate ? I dare say, no, not really.  I think Rowling is speaking through Lupin here and asking this very same question: Does eye-for-an-eye work ? Rowling worked for Amnesty International and I dare say her answer would be no, it doesn't really bring mankind forward in a constructive way.
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April 04, 2014, 12:17:00 AM
Reply #5

paint it Black

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3) Which is creating more stress for Hermione - her workload, or the tiff with Ron?
I think it is mostly her workload, though her estrangement with Ron and Harry isn't helping either.
I agree; Hermione is trying to be stoic, but her workload is out of control!  I have to think that it was cruel of the staff to allow her to use the Timeturner to attend the extra classes but not (I'm assuming) to use to gain extra study time to complete the work for these classes.  She's bright enough to learn the material from additional classes, but she's only human!

Quote
2) Lupin asks Harry if he really thinks anyone deserves the Dementor’s Kiss, to which Harry replies, “For some things.” What does the question say about Lupin? What does the answer say about Harry?

Me think Lupin have con-flict-ting feelings about Dementor kiss.  It like Cookie have con-flict-ting feelings about which is better: Chocolate Chip or Oreo cookie.  Me think Lupin angry with Sirius but he also only friend left and he feel lonely.  Maybe Lupin being good teacher and making Harry think about con-se-quences of what he think is good idea.  It easy to say "I believe this" or "I believe that" in heat of moment but if you think about what living with that descision means then maybe you think again about what you really believe.
I agree with Cookie Monster about this (and also, about cookies :nod: ).  I think Lupin is conflicted about something so horrible as the Dementor's Kiss happening to his former friend.  As he mentions later, he could have chosen to out Sirius as an Animagus to Dumbledore, but chooses not to (though he gives different reasons), so I think he still dislikes believing that Sirius is guilty.  I also like that he gently encourages Harry to consider his thoughts on this, and agree that this is a mark of a good teacher -- to get students to think for themselves.  Perhaps Lupin was even trying with this conversation to gauge whether Harry knew about Sirius' assumed role as James and Lily's betrayer.  If so, I think he got his answer when Harry said that Sirius deserved the Kiss.


Did anyone catch where Lupin said that he discovered the Boggart for the Patronus lesson?  In Filch's filing cabinet!  Any bets that he had a peek in there for the Marauder's Map while he was at it?  He does say later that he knows that Filch confiscated it years ago....

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April 04, 2014, 09:11:04 PM
Reply #6

roonwit

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3) Which is creating more stress for Hermione - her workload, or the tiff with Ron?
I think it is mostly her workload, though her estrangement with Ron and Harry isn't helping either.
I agree; Hermione is trying to be stoic, but her workload is out of control!  I have to think that it was cruel of the staff to allow her to use the Timeturner to attend the extra classes but not (I'm assuming) to use to gain extra study time to complete the work for these classes.  She's bright enough to learn the material from additional classes, but she's only human!
It seems the Hogwarts way to let pupils try and perhaps fail so they can learn their limits. Also Hermione isn't helping herself by working on Hagrid's appeal. However I think it is sensible not to use the time turner to make extra studying time because it is more risky than going to classes, because in a class you are in a predictable place with a fixed group of people around you that are unlikely to go and find you in another location, but there will be a much higher risk of people finding you in two places during free study, and perhaps running into yourself (say if you are thrown out of the library and can't avoid going back to the common room).
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June 15, 2014, 10:43:08 AM
Reply #7

Evreka

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1) If the Boggart isn’t a real Dementor, why does it still affect Harry so profoundly?
Well, when the Boggart assumes the shape of whatever frightens the person the most, it also moves and appears in the way that the real "thing" does. For example, "Snape" doesn't just look like Snape generally, hook-nosed, black-haired, dressed convincingly; he also comes with Snape's menacing face. Parvati's mummy  moves and acts convincingly, Seamus Banshee use the right voice, and so on. I think the Dementor shape, too, incorporates some of the things a real Dementor does, in much the same way. The Boggart mimics the way a real Dementor "work" and so has the same effect on Harry.

Also, as soon as Harry sees it he is expecting - and half-longing - to access his scariest moments in life as they include the voices of his parents...  :'( So in a way, he might be easy to get started on that bad line of thought, even if a real Dementor would affect him a LOT worse.

The Boggart plays on the individual’s fears and Harry having first hand experience with the Dementors seem to make the Boggart’s job easier.  Harry is feeling the fear as if a real Dementor is present.  His eyes see the threat and his mind takes over.  The effect is just as strong on Harry even though the situation not the real thing.  His mind and his emotions are controlling the situation more than the Boggart.

So I agree with ginginkat.



2) Lupin asks Harry if he really thinks anyone deserves the Dementor’s Kiss, to which Harry replies, “For some things.” What does the question say about Lupin? What does the answer say about Harry?
I think we need to take into account that they both have the same specific person in their mind when they think - even if it is not shown in their speech.  Harry thinks of a man who betrayed his parents and is the reason they died. Remus is also considering their shared childhood and old mutual memories of happier times. So, yes, I think Remus is very human in his question, but 13 year old Harry's reply is also easy to understand.

Lupin ...What good would it do if Sirius was subjected to the Dementor's kiss ? Would it do James And Lily Potter justice ? I think it is a similar question we have to face in the Muggle world about the Death Penalty, or court decisions where the victim  is allowed to get revenge. ...  I think Rowling is speaking through Lupin here and asking this very same question: Does eye-for-an-eye work ? Rowling worked for Amnesty International and I dare say her answer would be no, it doesn't really bring mankind forward in a constructive way.
Well put, siena.


Did anyone catch where Lupin said that he discovered the Boggart for the Patronus lesson?  In Filch's filing cabinet!  Any bets that he had a peek in there for the Marauder's Map while he was at it?  He does say later that he knows that Filch confiscated it years ago....
:o I can't believe I've missed this all the times I've read POA!  :surprised: You're right, he could have had ulterior motives for that search! Being the only surviving good Marauder (as far as he knows) he is the true owner by every right. But also, I suspect that he is very aware of how the  Map can be used to track Harry's whereabouts, so it makes every sense that he's looking for it, to make sure Sirius won't be able to steal it!  :thumbup: Good catch, paint it Black!


3) Which is creating more stress for Hermione - her workload, or the tiff with Ron?
Both, I think, especially combined. The workload makes her very stressed and she has no time but for studies, and so she can't spend too much time analysing how to get her friends back. At the same time this estrangement from them makes her even more vulnerable and uneasy and that's not a good place to be, when you need to concentrate on your studies, so.... it's a really bad, evil circle, I think.

I agree; Hermione is trying to be stoic, but her workload is out of control!  I have to think that it was cruel of the staff to allow her to use the Timeturner to attend the extra classes but not (I'm assuming) to use to gain extra study time to complete the work for these classes.  She's bright enough to learn the material from additional classes, but she's only human!
Not to mention that if you are re-living a lot of hours each school day plus all the extra school work, you'll be getting SOOO behind on sleep! If that schedule should work, she needs to get more sleep in than others too!  :o  Just think, if she has four more school hours than the rest, she is loosing a good nights sleep every five days! So each week she looses one night's sleep. That's rather inhuman too!


However I think it is sensible not to use the time turner to make extra studying time because it is more risky than going to classes, because in a class you are in a predictable place with a fixed group of people around you that are unlikely to go and find you in another location, but there will be a much higher risk of people finding you in two places during free study, and perhaps running into yourself (say if you are thrown out of the library and can't avoid going back to the common room).
This is a really good argument, and also counter argument against using it for more sleep.

But with that rules out, it gets a really hard and tough study load on Hermione's shoulders.  :console: And you're right about Buckbeaks appeal not helping her. But there, I think, also, she has no choice. Partly because she (they all) said they'd help him, and we know that Hermione stands by her given word, but also because at this point in time Hagrid is her last friend. She and fate has worked together to alienate her from her two best friends whom she cares so deeply about, surely she can't drop her last remaining friend in this life-threatening crisis? No wonder she can't drop it!


I've always loved the Patronus lessons and the growing relationship between Lupin and Harry.  :hug: But there is one instance where I, on my first read-through of the book, became even more convinced that Lupin was really Black and that all we knew about him consequently was wrong: On page 178 BPE, at one such lesson, Harry tells him that he heard his Dad. Lupin's reaction makes it apparent that he, too, knew James! And at the end of the lesson (page 179 BPE):
Quote
"Professor Lupin?" he [Harry] said. "If you knew my dad, you must've known Sirius Black as well."
Lupin turned very quickly.
"What gives you that idea?" he said sharply.
"Nothing -- I mean, I just knew they were friends at Hogwarts too...."
Lupin's face relaxed.
I took this to mean that Lupin was afraid Harry had deduced something about his "true identity", and was initially worried about how much he had guessed, but it isn't until NOW, that I suddenly think that his actual worry was that Snape should have spread something to the students on how they used to be friends or similar...  :o
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