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Author Topic: Chapter Fourteen - Snape's Grudge  (Read 1275 times)

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April 03, 2014, 07:43:07 PM

JaneMarple9

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Chapter Fourteen: Snape’s Grudge
(Chap Summary by twiddlethosedials )


Art by Tealin, colored by yukimel


Sir Cadogan is out, and the Fat Lady is in. Neville’s punished not only by McGonagall’s refusal to tell him the password, but also by a Howler. Hermione’s threats against sneaking out fall on deaf ears, and with the next Hogsmeade weekend, Harry puts on the Cloak and sneaks out of the castle. It’s all well and good until he manifest bodyless in front of the Git Triplets. Malfoy obviously beats Harry back to school, because Snape seems to know where he’s been, but it’s Lupin to the rescue, with a bit of a lecture. Buckbeak is sentenced to death.

A few questions to get you started:
1) How did Harry manage to scoop and throw mud without showing his hands?

2) Why did Lupin defend Harry to Snape, if he really thought Harry was in the wrong?

3) Whose version of the events is more trustworthy when it comes to the saving of the map?



"There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with a really big library"
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April 05, 2014, 12:43:32 AM
Reply #1

roonwit

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1) How did Harry manage to scoop and throw mud without showing his hands?
He could scoop mud up beneath the cloak. He might have to reveal his hand when throwing the mud, but could do that when no-one was looking. He could also hold things through the cloak, but I don't think he does.
2) Why did Lupin defend Harry to Snape, if he really thought Harry was in the wrong?
Lupin has a different style to Snape, and decides (correctly in my view) that a careful telling off will be more effective than any punishment Snape might dish out. I think he also wants to end things quickly so Snape doesn't get a good look at the map.
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April 06, 2014, 04:32:35 PM
Reply #2

HealerOne

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1) How did Harry manage to scoop and throw mud without showing his hands?
He could scoop mud up beneath the cloak. He might have to reveal his hand when throwing the mud, but could do that when no-one was looking. He could also hold things through the cloak, but I don't think he does.
2) Why did Lupin defend Harry to Snape, if he really thought Harry was in the wrong?
Lupin has a different style to Snape, and decides (correctly in my view) that a careful telling off will be more effective than any punishment Snape might dish out. I think he also wants to end things quickly so Snape doesn't get a good look at the map.
I think the text indicates  that in each instance where Harry was scooping and throwing the mud he was behind the boys. I wonder that Ron might have been able to spot Harry, but not the 'evil trio'. Also if you have no reference as to where someone is, you would have to be scanning the area and would most likely miss the clue as to where he was -especially if it was just a flash then gone into thin air.

Interesting about Lupin. I think here he is trying to save face around Snape and even perhaps around the boys. He knows what the map is and certainly doesn't want to get Harry into a huge amount of trouble because of the map that he helped author. He also knows that if he indicates to Snape what and where the map came from then, he would be implicated as either 1) providing the map to Harry for wrong doing or 2) being in cahoots with Sirius in getting into the castle. Lupin is having enough trouble trying to fit in as a teacher and he doesn't want trouble over this map.

Wisely, I think, he instead confronts Harry and Ron and basically 'guilt-trips' them into realizing how stupid their actions have been. One has to wonder that he is wishing that someone had done this to the Marauders when they were in school - pointing out to them how foolish and unsafe their wanderings had been. The other part of this is that Lupin has to be very grateful to DD for all that he has done for him in the past as well as presently. Revealing about the map would be also revealing that he had broken faith with DD during the time he was in school and Lupin fears facing that.   
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April 27, 2014, 08:04:16 AM
Reply #3

paint it Black

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Interesting about Lupin. I think here he is trying to save face around Snape and even perhaps around the boys. He knows what the map is and certainly doesn't want to get Harry into a huge amount of trouble because of the map that he helped author. He also knows that if he indicates to Snape what and where the map came from then, he would be implicated as either 1) providing the map to Harry for wrong doing or 2) being in cahoots with Sirius in getting into the castle. Lupin is having enough trouble trying to fit in as a teacher and he doesn't want trouble over this map.
I was thinking this as well.  Lupin definitely wants this map for himself, so he needs to think of the simplest way to get it and the boys out of Snape's office with a minimum of questions.  Although Snape doesn't know exactly what the map is, surely he knows who (at least some of) Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs are from their days at school together, doesn't he?  We see Sirius call James "Prongs" during Snape's Worst Memory, right after Lily tells James off (and right before Snape hexes James).  So Snape knows that this parchment has something to do with Lupin and his school friends, hence his crack about Harry having gotten it directly from the manufacturers.  I do think that Snape was convinced that Harry did not know the names of the men on the parchment, but since this is something concerning Sirius Black, I'm surprised that Snape let it go so easily.  I think Lupin was very lucky.  :whew:

Wisely, I think, he instead confronts Harry and Ron and basically 'guilt-trips' them into realizing how stupid their actions have been.
I also think that this was a very effective technique!  While Snape taunts Harry by saying things like "Everyone from the Minister for Magic downwards has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black.  But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself.  Let ordinary people worry about his safety!  Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences." -- Lupin wisely points out that his parents died to ensure his safety, and that Harry was making light of their sacrifice.  :( Can't lay on a heavier guilt trip than that!  It's also the second wake-up call Harry's had about priorities this chapter, after Hagrid guilt-trips him and Ron about valuing "broomsticks or rats" more than their friend Hermione.  It's time for these boys to do some growing up.

...The other part of this is that Lupin has to be very grateful to DD for all that he has done for him in the past as well as presently. Revealing about the map would be also revealing that he had broken faith with DD during the time he was in school and Lupin fears facing that.   
Yes.  This is the other reason that Lupin really wants this map.  Not only does he not want Dumbledore to know of it (as it links him to misdeeds from his school days), he may also want to redeem himself for not telling Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animagus (and convince himself that Sirius is not an immediate threat) by monitoring the map for him.  I wonder if Sirius conceived of the notion that the Map may still be in use by someone, and so avoided coming within its range when he was hiding in the Forest (with a few exceptions).

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April 27, 2014, 03:18:29 PM
Reply #4

HealerOne

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Yes.  This is the other reason that Lupin really wants this map.  Not only does he not want Dumbledore to know of it (as it links him to misdeeds from his school days), he may also want to redeem himself for not telling Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animagus (and convince himself that Sirius is not an immediate threat) by monitoring the map for him.  I wonder if Sirius conceived of the notion that the Map may still be in use by someone, and so avoided coming within its range when he was hiding in the Forest (with a few exceptions).
Good point. I believe someone else pointed out that the Boggart Lupin found for Harry's Dementor/Patronus lessons was found in Filtch's files. Might Lupin have been using his hunt for a Boggart to try and find that map?
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May 02, 2014, 11:47:42 PM
Reply #5

paint it Black

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Yes.  This is the other reason that Lupin really wants this map.  Not only does he not want Dumbledore to know of it (as it links him to misdeeds from his school days), he may also want to redeem himself for not telling Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animagus (and convince himself that Sirius is not an immediate threat) by monitoring the map for him.  I wonder if Sirius conceived of the notion that the Map may still be in use by someone, and so avoided coming within its range when he was hiding in the Forest (with a few exceptions).
Good point. I believe someone else pointed out that the Boggart Lupin found for Harry's Dementor/Patronus lessons was found in Filtch's files. Might Lupin have been using his hunt for a Boggart to try and find that map?

Hee hee, yes that was me, back in Chapter 12:

Did anyone catch where Lupin said that he discovered the Boggart for the Patronus lesson?  In Filch's filing cabinet!  Any bets that he had a peek in there for the Marauder's Map while he was at it?  He does say later that he knows that Filch confiscated it years ago....

I'm beginning to think more and more that this is likely.  I do think that he was genuinely looking for a Boggart, but once he realized that he could search Filch's office, he probably thought, why not?  ::)

Something else interesting from this chapter... Hagrid tells the boys that he's booked two beds on the Knight Bus to take Buckbeak to London for his hearing.  What an image, a Hippogriff on the Knight Bus!  ;D Even more so, a Hippogriff inside the Ministry!  Surely he couldn't fit in the visitor's entrance.  It's a wonder that Hagrid could fit in there!  Perhaps there was a fireplace in London from which Hagrid could Floo into the Ministry...?  Or perhaps Buckbeak's hearing was held elsewhere in London?

Cuppa is discussing Harper Lee's Go Set a Watchman.  Please join us!
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May 03, 2014, 03:23:47 AM
Reply #6

HealerOne

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Something else interesting from this chapter... Hagrid tells the boys that he's booked two beds on the Knight Bus to take Buckbeak to London for his hearing.  What an image, a Hippogriff on the Knight Bus!  ;D Even more so, a Hippogriff inside the Ministry!  Surely he couldn't fit in the visitor's entrance.  It's a wonder that Hagrid could fit in there!  Perhaps there was a fireplace in London from which Hagrid could Floo into the Ministry...?  Or perhaps Buckbeak's hearing was held elsewhere in London?
Can you imagine Stan's goggling at Buckbeak on the Knight bus! He might even forget his speech! We did see an instance in OotP  - where a wizard had an illegal beast in a cardboard box in the Ministry elevator. I believe that the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Magical Creatures is on Level Four of the MoM - so they must have had some provision ... maybe some sort of freight elevator? Perhaps they used a shrinking charm? Or maybe they had a special area in the London Zoo unknown to Muggles? (Maybe we will find out in the upcoming movie about Newt Scamander?)
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June 29, 2014, 04:39:56 PM
Reply #7

Evreka

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1) How did Harry manage to scoop and throw mud without showing his hands?

He could scoop mud up beneath the cloak. He might have to reveal his hand when throwing the mud, but could do that when no-one was looking. He could also hold things through the cloak, but I don't think he does.
Seeing as Harry is worried that his hands aren't clean, I assume he used the former method: Scooping under the cloak. This seems far wiser anyway, as I assume that if the cloak got dirty, you'd see the dirt that was clinging to it, even if you didn't see the cloak. I seem to remember that that was a problem during some point in the later books, the Battle of Hogwarts, possibly? I don't have my books (except POA) with me so I can not check...

As for throwing, either he did have to show his hands, or his ability at magic could alter the volley of the snowball so he could throw it out from under the hem... ?  :mcgonagall2: Also, HealerOne has a good point:
I think the text indicates  that in each instance where Harry was scooping and throwing the mud he was behind the boys. I wonder that Ron might have been able to spot Harry, but not the 'evil trio'. Also if you have no reference as to where someone is, you would have to be scanning the area and would most likely miss the clue as to where he was -especially if it was just a flash then gone into thin air.
You're right about it being very unlikely that they'd happen to be looking precisely where Harry's hand happened to be - not least as they were all terrified and certainly not thinking to clearly.



2) Why did Lupin defend Harry to Snape, if he really thought Harry was in the wrong?
Lupin has a different style to Snape, and decides (correctly in my view) that a careful telling off will be more effective than any punishment Snape might dish out. I think he also wants to end things quickly so Snape doesn't get a good look at the map.
I agree, Lupin don't want Snape to get his hands on the Map; and he might also want to refuse Snape for the sake of it, I guess. But his main reason, I think, is to stop Snape from getting hold of the Map. Further, this way he can make sure Harry takes the reprimand seriously and really does go straight to his commom room, as otherwise Lupin will know he doesn't.


He also knows that if he indicates to Snape what and where the map came from then, he would be implicated as either 1) providing the map to Harry for wrong doing or 2) being in cahoots with Sirius in getting into the castle. Lupin is having enough trouble trying to fit in as a teacher and he doesn't want trouble over this map.
... The other part of this is that Lupin has to be very grateful to DD for all that he has done for him in the past as well as presently. Revealing about the map would be also revealing that he had broken faith with DD during the time he was in school and Lupin fears facing that.   
I agree about the first part, that it would put Lupin in a difficult position if Snape learned about the Map, but I think the existence of this Map in and of itself doesn't spoil their childhood adventures, so I don't think it would reveal any broken faith to Dumbledore.


So Snape knows that this parchment has something to do with Lupin and his school friends, hence his crack about Harry having gotten it directly from the manufacturers.  I do think that Snape was convinced that Harry did not know the names of the men on the parchment, but since this is something concerning Sirius Black, I'm surprised that Snape let it go so easily.  I think Lupin was very lucky.  :whew:
Hmmm... I'm sure Snape called Lupin precisely because he knew he was Moony, but having done so - what can he do when Lupin covers things up? Go to Dumbledore? But he has already told Snape repeatedly that he trusts Lupin. Trickt situation that does nothing to further their relationship...


I also think that this was a very effective technique!  While Snape taunts Harry by saying things like "Everyone from the Minister for Magic downwards has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black.  But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself.  Let ordinary people worry about his safety!  Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences." -- Lupin wisely points out that his parents died to ensure his safety, and that Harry was making light of their sacrifice.  :( Can't lay on a heavier guilt trip than that! 
I think their different techniques are also due to the fact that Snape doesn't understand Harry at all, so he throws the thing on him that irritates Snape, himself, the most. Whereas Lupin, who truly knows Harry, also knows what will make an impact.


I believe someone else pointed out that the Boggart Lupin found for Harry's Dementor/Patronus lessons was found in Filtch's files. Might Lupin have been using his hunt for a Boggart to try and find that map?
Hee hee, yes that was me, back in Chapter 12:

Did anyone catch where Lupin said that he discovered the Boggart for the Patronus lesson?  In Filch's filing cabinet!  Any bets that he had a peek in there for the Marauder's Map while he was at it?  He does say later that he knows that Filch confiscated it years ago....
I'm beginning to think more and more that this is likely.  I do think that he was genuinely looking for a Boggart, but once he realized that he could search Filch's office, he probably thought, why not?  ::)
:D I think I said this in chapter 12 too, but this really does seem likely, and the interesting thing about it is that he then also knew it was no longer there. Still he must have been convinced Sirius didn’t have it, I suppose.



3) Whose version of the events is more trustworthy when it comes to the saving of the map?
I have no idea what you mean?  :mcgonagall2: Please explain!



« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 04:41:49 PM by Evreka »
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June 29, 2014, 06:03:25 PM
Reply #8

siena

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I wouldn't say that Snape doesn't understand Harry at all. That's not a fact, Evreka, but just your interpretation (which is of course as valid as any other input, don't get me wrong  ;) ) Snape does understand that Harry is at times extremely reckless, and that he completely disregards the fact that a lot of people put in a hell of a lot of effort to keep him safe. Snape, in my opinion, does grasp this fact very well and points it out to Harry.

I do, however, I agree with paintItBlack who said that Lupin is the one who understands to make a far better appeal to Harry's consciousness by pointing out his parents' sacrifice for him.
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