July 21, 2018, 06:35:05 PM

Author Topic: Chapter Eighteen: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs  (Read 1403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

April 17, 2014, 07:12:16 PM

JaneMarple9

  • Staffer
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
Chapter Eighteen: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
(Chap Summary by twiddlethosedials )



Fan Art by kalicothekat


Neither Ron, Hermione nor Harry believe Lupin and Black’s tale, but Lupin persuades Black to wait while he explains. (Insert lengthy exposition here.) The Reader’s Digest Condensed Version: James, Sirius and Peter all learned to become Animagi to keep Remus, the werewolf, company once a month. The Whomping Willow was a cover for Remus’s hiding place, the Shrieking Shack. But what’s that sound? Tah-dah! It’s Snape!

A few questions to get you started:
1) Why is it so important to Lupin that Harry, Ron and Hermione understand what happened?

2) What did you think about Black’s prank on Snape? What did you think about James’s intervention?

3) How does this chapter relate to the rest of the series?



"There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with a really big library"
Logged
April 19, 2014, 12:44:58 PM
Reply #1

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
1) Why is it so important to Lupin that Harry, Ron and Hermione understand what happened?
I think Lupin sees that Harry in particular needs to know the truth about the death of his parents. He is probably also keen that his and Sirius's part is understood, so the trio can trust Lupin again, and Sirius and Harry have the chance of forming a friendship.
2) What did you think about Black’s prank on Snape? What did you think about James’s intervention?
Sirius was wrong to put Snape in danger and also to betray Lupin's secret. James was right to try to save Snape, though he was in less danger than Snape was as he knew what he was facing and could probably transform if he had to.
3) How does this chapter relate to the rest of the series?
It (with the next one) transforms Sirius from an apparent dangerous enemy to someone Harry can trust, and in due course gives Harry 12 Grimmauld Place and Kreacher, both of which prove very useful in the end.
Logged
April 19, 2014, 01:50:43 PM
Reply #2

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303
I agree with roonwit on all parts.

Sirius risked killing a person at the worst, and contaminating a person with an uncurable disease at best at the age of sixteen. As I pointed out in a different thread, I do seriously worry about Sirius's mental faculties here. He is described as very intelligent. However, here I have serious doubts he had a brain at all. He risked committing murder, contaminating a person AND exposing his best friend's secret, thus threatening this best friend's future in the worst possible ways. Lupin's affliction was a secret - and had it been exposed, Lupin would have become an outcast at once. The Ministry would have locked him up in a high security ward in St Mungo's.

This incident makes it very difficult for me to believe in Sirius completely. I'm aware he suffered a terrible fate - but he was obviously willing to let other people suffer just as much. And yes, James redeemed himself in part here. As roonwit pointed out, he wasn't  in as much danger while doing so but still. He did the right thing.

I also feel inclined to point out the word prank is misplaced here - I would rather replace it with OFFENCE/CRIME in capital letters. I know Dumbledore didn't punish Sirius because in doing so Lupin would have been exposed. However, had it not been at the cost of Lupin's fate (which Dumbledore wished to protect, and rightly so) Sirius should - at the very least - been expelled from Hogwarts, and his wand should have been destroyed.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 02:09:49 PM by siena »
Logged
April 19, 2014, 04:22:42 PM
Reply #3

HealerOne

  • Staffer
  • *****
  • Posts: 914
    • Chasing the Tale
I also feel inclined to point out the word prank is misplaced here - I would rather replace it with OFFENCE/CRIME in capital letters. I know Dumbledore didn't punish Sirius because in doing so Lupin would have been exposed. However, had it not been at the cost of Lupin's fate (which Dumbledore wished to protect, and rightly so) Sirius should - at the very least - been expelled from Hogwarts, and his wand should have been destroyed.

Siena, you make a very good case here. However I don't think that we can forget that however 'on the outs' with his parents, Sirius's family had some pretty hefty ties in the MoM and plenty of money. At this point in time I don't think Sirius had completely been tossed out of the Black household and had not been 'blasted' off the family tree by Mama. So there may have been some 'under the table money' exchanged with the powers that be that got Sirius out of the really deep trouble. Nevertheless, this was a serious act that Sirius tried to do. It certainly isn't just a schoolboy prank. Teenagers do such stupid things because 1) they believe they, and everyone else around them are invincible; 2) they look at the 'here and now' and not the long term; 3) they act before they think. Sirius was raised in a household where such ways of getting back at your enemies was normal - even if it did put them in mortal peril. The Black outlook would have been 'So what'?

James on the other hand was raised in a family where bravery and fair play was held in highest regards. Thank goodness James had the sense to stop Snape from getting hurt. I honestly think James's motive was for Snape's safety more than 'saving  the hides of his friends'. I believe he was able to understand the more devastating results of such an encounter, because he just plain had more sense than Sirius.

Let's not forget that Snape was out of line also. Not that I am saying he deserved such a fate, but he wasn't blameless in the episode either - a fact that Snape doesn't acknowledge.

All in all this certainly was not the greatest moment for all involved.
Logged
April 20, 2014, 07:13:28 PM
Reply #4

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
Sirius risked killing a person at the worst, and contaminating a person with an uncurable disease at best at the age of sixteen. As I pointed out in a different thread, I do seriously worry about Sirius's mental faculties here. He is described as very intelligent. However, here I have serious doubts he had a brain at all. He risked committing murder, contaminating a person AND exposing his best friend's secret, thus threatening this best friend's future in the worst possible ways. Lupin's affliction was a secret - and had it been exposed, Lupin would have become an outcast at once. The Ministry would have locked him up in a high security ward in St Mungo's.
I can't see Lupin being punished, as he wouldn't have been at fault (on this occasion at least), however I think it would be impossible for Lupin to stay at Hogwarts, and the Ministry could well have imposed strict controls on Lupin during the full moon.
This incident makes it very difficult for me to believe in Sirius completely. I'm aware he suffered a terrible fate - but he was obviously willing to let other people suffer just as much. And yes, James redeemed himself in part here. As roonwit pointed out, he wasn't  in as much danger while doing so but still. He did the right thing.
I see this as a reckless act which is rather typical of Sirius, and a more extreme example of the Marauders' recklessness letting a werewolf roam Hogwarts.
I also feel inclined to point out the word prank is misplaced here - I would rather replace it with OFFENCE/CRIME in capital letters. I know Dumbledore didn't punish Sirius because in doing so Lupin would have been exposed. However, had it not been at the cost of Lupin's fate (which Dumbledore wished to protect, and rightly so) Sirius should - at the very least - been expelled from Hogwarts, and his wand should have been destroyed.
If Snape had died or been seriously injured I doubt Dumbledore would have much choice, and he would have had to expel Sirius. However Dumbledore seems very forgiving if no permanent harm has been done, so he might have allowed Sirius to stay at Hogwarts even if he didn't have to protect Lupin.
Logged
April 22, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
Reply #5

ss19

  • DS's resident Clever Clogs
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
1) Why is it so important to Lupin that Harry, Ron and Hermione understand what happened?
Lupin lost all 3 of his best (only?) friends when the Potters were killed, Sirius was imprisoned, and Peter was presumed dead.  I wonder why he didn't try to establish contact with Harry sooner.  When he and Harry finally met again in PoA after all those years, the two quickly developed a special bond.  It makes sense to me that he would want Harry to find out his backstory and connection with Harry's parents, so that Harry can fully understand the depth of their bond as well as the truth regarding his parents' death.


2) What did you think about Black’s prank on Snape? What did you think about James’s intervention?
Sirius risked killing a person at the worst, and contaminating a person with an uncurable disease at best at the age of sixteen. As I pointed out in a different thread, I do seriously worry about Sirius's mental faculties here. He is described as very intelligent. However, here I have serious doubts he had a brain at all. He risked committing murder, contaminating a person AND exposing his best friend's secret, thus threatening this best friend's future in the worst possible ways. Lupin's affliction was a secret - and had it been exposed, Lupin would have become an outcast at once. The Ministry would have locked him up in a high security ward in St Mungo's.

This incident makes it very difficult for me to believe in Sirius completely. I'm aware he suffered a terrible fate - but he was obviously willing to let other people suffer just as much.   And yes, James redeemed himself in part here. As roonwit pointed out, he wasn't  in as much danger while doing so but still. He did the right thing.

Sirius is a very reckless and rebellious person.  That means he's prone to doing stupid things not because he doesn't have a brain but because he's not using the brain when his recklessness takes over.  Even as an adult, we still see that side of him.  He even tries to encourage Harry to become more reckless.

Like many have said, his "little" prank put not only Snape's life in danger, but also his friend's and his own future in danger.  It was a very stupid thing to do, no doubt.  Fortunately, for all involved, James stepped in and prevented the tragedy.  This is one reason it's good to have friends who can help keep each other out of trouble, such as we see here when one friend isn't thinking rationally but another one is.


I also feel inclined to point out the word prank is misplaced here - I would rather replace it with OFFENCE/CRIME in capital letters. I know Dumbledore didn't punish Sirius because in doing so Lupin would have been exposed. However, had it not been at the cost of Lupin's fate (which Dumbledore wished to protect, and rightly so) Sirius should - at the very least - been expelled from Hogwarts, and his wand should have been destroyed.
If Snape had died or been seriously injured I doubt Dumbledore would have much choice, and he would have had to expel Sirius. However Dumbledore seems very forgiving if no permanent harm has been done, so he might have allowed Sirius to stay at Hogwarts even if he didn't have to protect Lupin.

I think Dumbledore should have been held partially responsible too, had Snape been bitten and/or killed by the werewolf.  It was an accident waiting to happen the way Dumbledore hid Lupin's condition from other teachers and students.  In my opinion, it would have been better if everyone knew the truth and knew to take precautions to keep themselves safe whenever there's a full moon.  I understand that this probably wouldn't have worked as all the parents would likely protest having a werewolf at school.  But if that happens, then the werewolf shouldn't be there.  As it were, Dumbledore made the decision himself without the school community's approval and knowledge, putting everyone in danger.
Logged
April 22, 2014, 07:27:13 PM
Reply #6

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303

I think Dumbledore should have been held partially responsible too, had Snape been bitten and/or killed by the werewolf.  It was an accident waiting to happen the way Dumbledore hid Lupin's condition from other teachers and students.  In my opinion, it would have been better if everyone knew the truth and knew to take precautions to keep themselves safe whenever there's a full moon.  I understand that this probably wouldn't have worked as all the parents would likely protest having a werewolf at school.  But if that happens, then the werewolf shouldn't be there.  As it were, Dumbledore made the decision himself without the school community's approval and knowledge, putting everyone in danger.


I can only partly agree. Had it come to a legal trial, Dumbledore would no doubt have been held responsible. He is the responsible adult in charge of Hogwarts who admitted Lupin without the governors' knowledge and approval, as you said. However, I do not agree that he put everyone in danger, nor that Lupin shouldn't have been there. Dumbledore took extreme precaution by planting the Whomping Willow, making it impossible really to get anywhere near Lupin once he was transformed. Yes, he was counting on Lupin to keep this a secret and Lupin betrayed him by telling his friends. Maybe the Shrieking Shack should have been put under the Fidelius Charm, with Dumbledore being Secret Keeper, preventing Lupin from speaking the name of the place, thereby ensuring that only Lupin would be able to reach it. Maybe Dumbledore was counting too much on the reliability of some teenagers.

But I feel that Lupin had every right to receive an education at Hogwarts, and to make friends, and to get a chance in life. Most unfortunately Dumbledore was forced to keep it secret, which points towards a problem in the system itself, which we have discussed at length in the Leaky Lounge.

I'm not saying Dumbledore's decision was fireproof - but fact remains - in my opinion - that things went reasonably well under the circumstances until that one Sirius Black decided it would be amusing to risk everything.

Yes, it must have been hard for Sirius to grow up in a racist household, and he was the only one who held values of humanity and goodness against all this. All of this speaks of intelligence and a well developed character. But this makes his crime even more incomprehensible for me - because it is so incredibly brainless that stupid doesn't even cover it.













Logged
April 22, 2014, 10:14:55 PM
Reply #7

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
I can only partly agree. Had it come to a legal trial, Dumbledore would no doubt have been held responsible. He is the responsible adult in charge of Hogwarts who admitted Lupin without the governors' knowledge and approval, as you said. However, I do not agree that he put everyone in danger, nor that Lupin shouldn't have been there. Dumbledore took extreme precaution by planting the Whomping Willow, making it impossible really to get anywhere near Lupin once he was transformed. Yes, he was counting on Lupin to keep this a secret and Lupin betrayed him by telling his friends. Maybe the Shrieking Shack should have been put under the Fidelius Charm, with Dumbledore being Secret Keeper, preventing Lupin from speaking the name of the place, thereby ensuring that only Lupin would be able to reach it. Maybe Dumbledore was counting too much on the reliability of some teenagers.
Actually, there is no evidence that Lupin did tell the Marauders about the Willow. It wouldn't be hard for them to find out where Lupin went, probably following Lupin as far as the Willow under the cloak (Snape also found out that much by observation). The issue is more the ability of teenagers to find out things. However, I don't think a Fidelius Charm was needed, a firmly locked door - bewitched so alohomora and similar spells didn't work) and perhaps with a no entry sign signed by Dumbledore - would probably be enough.
Logged
April 23, 2014, 04:05:11 PM
Reply #8

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303
But Lupin seems to think that he betrayed Dumbledore by not telling him that James, Peter and Sirius became Animagi. He wouldn't have been able to prevent James and Sirius even had he wanted to though I think.

A lock guarded by a spell by Dumbledore would have been a good idea. It would have prevented anyone else getting in. Dumbledore would have needed to guide Lupin in and out. I think that although the willow seemed to do the job pretty well there was also the small chance that a small animal like a cat or a small dog would have managed to get through the branches to accidently tread on the knob to calm the tree. And had a human being been near as well, he/she might have been curious enough to enter the Shack.
Logged
April 24, 2014, 04:09:37 AM
Reply #9

ss19

  • DS's resident Clever Clogs
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
Dumbledore took extreme precaution by planting the Whomping Willow, making it impossible really to get anywhere near Lupin once he was transformed. Yes, he was counting on Lupin to keep this a secret and Lupin betrayed him by telling his friends.

As roonwit already mentioned, Lupin did NOT tell his friends the secret.  They figured it out for themselves.  Here's the reference that I looked up:

PoA, Chapter 18
"Now, my three friends could hardly fail to notice that I disappeared once a month.  I made up all sorts of stories.  I told them my mother was ill, and that I had to go home to see her. . . . I was terrified they would desert me the moment they found out what I was.  But of course, they, like you, Hermione, worked out the truth. . . ."

So, the fact is that it was NOT impossible to get past the Whomping Willow.  The 3 non-werewolf Marauders figured out how to do it, and Sirius even taught a cat (half kneazle?) how to do it.  You said yourself in your last post that an animal could accidentally touch the knot.


Maybe Dumbledore was counting too much on the reliability of some teenagers.

Exactly.  He was relying on no one breaking any rules or becoming curious or figuring things out.  How hard is it to work out what's going on when someone's always missing every month at the full moon?


But I feel that Lupin had every right to receive an education at Hogwarts, and to make friends, and to get a chance in life. Most unfortunately Dumbledore was forced to keep it secret, which points towards a problem in the system itself, which we have discussed at length in the Leaky Lounge.

Yes, I also agree with you and Dumbledore that Lupin should have been allowed to attend Hogwarts.  But that's beside my point.  You and I or Dumbledore don't get to make all the rules and shouldn't be above the laws.

But yes, I agree that there's a problem with the system, which I also remember discussing at length at Leaky Lounge.


But Lupin seems to think that he betrayed Dumbledore by not telling him that James, Peter and Sirius became Animagi. He wouldn't have been able to prevent James and Sirius even had he wanted to though I think.

He could have prevented James and Sirius from becoming Animagi if he had told on them while they were still working out how to do it.  He knew it was dangerous what they were doing and that they were lucky nothing went wrong - he told the trio that one of the reasons the Ministry keeps close tabs on those attempting it is because it can go horribly wrong.  Plus they were breaking school rules that Dumbledore set to keep him and others safe during his transformations.

It makes sense that Lupin would feel guilty and would feel that he betrayed Dumbledore's trust even though he wasn't the one who told his friends his secret.
Logged
April 24, 2014, 02:13:31 PM
Reply #10

siena

  • *****
  • Posts: 303


As roonwit already mentioned, Lupin did NOT tell his friends the secret.  They figured it out for themselves.  Here's the reference that I looked up:

PoA, Chapter 18
"Now, my three friends could hardly fail to notice that I disappeared once a month.  I made up all sorts of stories.  I told them my mother was ill, and that I had to go home to see her. . . . I was terrified they would desert me the moment they found out what I was.  But of course, they, like you, Hermione, worked out the truth. . . ."

So, the fact is that it was NOT impossible to get past the Whomping Willow.  The 3 non-werewolf Marauders figured out how to do it, and Sirius even taught a cat (half kneazle?) how to do it.  You said yourself in your last post that an animal could accidentally touch the knot.

They worked out the truth for themselves. But it doesn't say they worked out how to enter the Shack by themselves. Lupin could have told them. Sirius could only teach Crookshanks because he already knew.






Yes, I also agree with you and Dumbledore that Lupin should have been allowed to attend Hogwarts.  But that's beside my point.  You and I or Dumbledore don't get to make all the rules and shouldn't be above the laws.

No, but I find there is enough moral ground here to justify breaking the rules - being aware of the fact that some of the rules the Ministry established are highly discriminating against minority groups. If no one ever dared to break established rules on moral grounds, we'd live in a society without rights for minority groups. It's people like Dumbledore who changed the world for the better.








He could have prevented James and Sirius from becoming Animagi if he had told on them while they were still working out how to do it.  He knew it was dangerous what they were doing and that they were lucky nothing went wrong - he told the trio that one of the reasons the Ministry keeps close tabs on those attempting it is because it can go horribly wrong.  Plus they were breaking school rules that Dumbledore set to keep him and others safe during his transformations.



I doubt very much indeed that Lupin would have had a chance preventing Sirius and James from doing whatever they had set their minds on. We know that Lupin tried to prevent both from taunting Snape and he was largely unsuccessful, apart from making them feel a bit ashamed sometimes. So I doubt very much that he could have prevented them from becoming animagi. Both James and Sirius loved doing dangerous and reckless things.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 02:23:24 PM by siena »
Logged
April 24, 2014, 11:41:02 PM
Reply #11

roonwit

  • *****
  • Posts: 477
He could have prevented James and Sirius from becoming Animagi if he had told on them while they were still working out how to do it.  He knew it was dangerous what they were doing and that they were lucky nothing went wrong - he told the trio that one of the reasons the Ministry keeps close tabs on those attempting it is because it can go horribly wrong.
He could only do it if he knew they were trying to become animagi. It is possible the others kept that from him, perhaps working on it on full moon nights when he was absent.
Plus they were breaking school rules that Dumbledore set to keep him and others safe during his transformations.
I think this is what Lupin felt most guilty about afterwards, because he himself points out that there were near misses on these night time outings.
Logged