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Author Topic: What did you not see coming? CONTAINS SPOILERS  (Read 1485 times)

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July 31, 2016, 07:28:16 AM

RiverSpirit

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SPOILERS INSIDE.

So you've finished the book. If you are like me you probably needed a little while to process what you had read. I did everything I could to stay away from spoilers and I am so glad I did. Now it's time for us to talk about all of the moments that took you by surprise, that shocked you, made you yell in despair or gave you a new perspective.

So, let's get started.


  
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July 31, 2016, 03:13:15 PM
Reply #1

atschpe

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I think what surprised me most is how much the play falls back on past events, drawing heavily on Harry's fourth year and then when he survived the curse. It's as if the play was spot-lighting the pivotal points. And yes following the Greek-play format of how the five acts create the story arch, the 4th book takes the place of third act which is the pivoting point.
Another interesting point is how the play explores the various outcomes. Giving us two parallel worlds, to compare and contrast the main story line/world with. It teaches many lessons through this device.

Halfway through I had mixed feelings about all the time travelling, but when Delphi's true interests were revealed, the feeling of repetition and falling back on the "old" dissolved. I am still however, trying to figure out who the cursed child is: Albus, in the shadow of his father's name and feeling unaccepted; Scorpius carrying the rumours about his birth, as well as being cursed by Delphi to influence Albus; or maybe even Harry himself as it was his cursing that set all the prophecies into action.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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July 31, 2016, 08:57:44 PM
Reply #2

RiverSpirit

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I am still however, trying to figure out who the cursed child is: Albus, in the shadow of his father's name and feeling unaccepted; Scorpius carrying the rumours about his birth, as well as being cursed by Delphi to influence Albus; or maybe even Harry himself as it was his cursing that set all the prophecies into action.

I agree completely. I would also through Cedric into the mix. He was destined to be "the spare". I really think that it is up to the reader to choose their own cursed child letting us all reflect on our individual HP journey and draw our own conclusions.
  
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August 01, 2016, 01:50:56 AM
Reply #3
I was kind of leaning toward Delphi being the cursed child...

The alternate world Cedric as Death Eater really took my breath away. Humiliation is one of the strongest motivations in a human's reaction to their circumstances, but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of Cedric going THAT far. It hurt my heart.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 01:59:48 AM by HerHighandMightyness »
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August 01, 2016, 06:43:41 PM
Reply #4

atschpe

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Yes, HerHighandMightyness I thought of Delphi, too, as a candidate for the cursed child, in the way that she carries the curse with her, which tries to change the world through her actions (how much is it really her wishes, projected view of the world, and how much is her upbringing etc. … nature vs. nurture strikes again). It is really interesting that this time around Rowling is not as direct in her choice of title as before. Similarly, the nest and wings do not tie in as directly either.

Yes, Cedric as death eater is a huge change. But I can see it in a way. There was a drive to win, achieve in life with him, and if humiliated him embracing that drive to an extreme and thus seeking powerful allies, even if on the dark side is likely. In a way that is also what drove Snape closer and closer, and finally over the edge – humiliation, nobody standing by him.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 02, 2016, 07:20:41 PM
Reply #5

HealerOne

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I was kind of leaning toward Delphi being the cursed child...

The alternate world Cedric as Death Eater really took my breath away. Humiliation is one of the strongest motivations in a human's reaction to their circumstances, but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of Cedric going THAT far. It hurt my heart.

Before reading the book I thought the cursed child was Albus just because he bears a triple burden: #1 he is the son of Harry Potter, #2 His first name is Albus after the most famous wizard of all times, #3 His second name is Severus after a former Death Eater no less...

But afterwards, I am with you HerHighandMightyness , Delphi certainly appears to be the best candidate for the Cursed Child.

On the other hand ... JKR could have used the title as sort of a red herring. Right? I mean we all thought maybe it could be Scorpius or Albus, but I don't think any of us put together that there could have been a child of old moldy Voldy.  I guess in the end I am saying that any of these three could have been the one which was cursed. Oh, and there is a small possibility that Draco's wife could be the cursed child because her bloodline had been  cursed.

Now the point of Cedric going to the dark side - Pretty tough to swallow, however who knows what the forces were that turned him in that direction. It appeared that alternate evil state could have turned just about anybody to the Dark side - if they wanted to stay  alive. Just look how many good people do really bad stuff during wars. Evil is here and among us. If we don't have the mantle of love over us  - the dark side could look good. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 10:51:56 PM by HealerOne »
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August 02, 2016, 07:58:35 PM
Reply #6

atschpe

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Now the point of Cedric going to the dark side - Pretty tough to swallow, however who knows what the forces were that turned him in that direction. It appeared that alternate evil state could have turned just about anybody to the Dark side - if they wanted to stay  alive. Just look how many good people do really bad stuff during wars. Evil is here and among us. If we don't have the mantle of love over us  - the dark side could look good. 

Good point, HealerOne. We only saw little glimpses of his character. Yes, he was a fair player (his honesty about hte Quidditch match; wanting to repay Harry's help), but there is also a insecurity there (not agreeing with the Potter-stinks badges, but not standing up for Harry either). He is a young man after all, trying to find his place in life. And something like humilation at such a point in life – yes, I agree that can really go overboard. Who knows his father might have edged him on with his "support".

Could this be, why Delphi chose to use Diggory? Because she knew of Cedric's potential (even before that alternate timeline was experienced) and the roll his father could have played in this development?
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 03, 2016, 12:31:48 AM
Reply #7

wordsaremagic

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Within the first 18 pages I decided that it probably should have been titled "Cursed Children." They all live in immense shadows of good and evil.
But then, as a Baby Boomer, I grew up in immense shadows of good and evil, wanting very much to understand what had really gone on in that great struggle that was World War II. How hard it is to live with the shadow of both victory and defeat, that is if you are a person who wants to get beneath the surface clichés.
I grew up watching the weight of war on my father, who never really recovered from the multiple traumas of so much death and destruction, so much blood. He wasn't easy to get close too, not that he wanted to be difficult.
Every adult male I knew seemed to be a war veteran. In the wizarding world, every child faces a similar situation.
Then I think about my own, somewhat mild, experiences as a Vietnam Veteran. My children and grandchildren must wonder a great deal, not just from me but from all that the culture around them assumes to be true (even when it isn't).
War has long fingers.
---
As far as Cedric goes, it was hard to think of any Hufflepuff as a Death Eater.
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August 03, 2016, 02:05:03 AM
Reply #8
Those teenage years are hard enough as a muggle, but yes, I can see humiliation doing  some serious damage to Cedric. And the point about his father is spot on - he was a loving father, but a bit forceful when it came to the success of his son.

wordsaremagic, that is an excellent parallel to ponder upon.
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August 05, 2016, 08:24:01 PM
Reply #9

JaneMarple9

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Well, for starters, I was NOT expecting Delphi to be Voldemort's daughter. I was beginning to like her, and liked to friendship between her and Albus. I was not expecting so many throwbacks to the previous books either. There seemed to be a lot of concentration on the Triwizard Tournament and trying to alter time ... yet again! I wasn't expecting the Diggory family to play such a big role - but it eventually made sense. And although time-travelling hurt my head in book three, the time-travelling fitted into the play a lot more.

"There's nothing better than a good friend, except a good friend with a really big library"
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August 13, 2016, 07:14:15 AM
Reply #10

HealerOne

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Well, for starters, I was NOT expecting Delphi to be Voldemort's daughter. I was beginning to like her, and liked to friendship between her and Albus. I was not expecting so many throwbacks to the previous books either. There seemed to be a lot of concentration on the Triwizard Tournament and trying to alter time ... yet again! I wasn't expecting the Diggory family to play such a big role - but it eventually made sense. And although time-travelling hurt my head in book three, the time-travelling fitted into the play a lot more.
Interesting that The Triwizard Tournament was so prominent in the story. However it is in the fourth book, the cornerstone of the seven book series, so it does make sense that this was where Harry's story was most vulnerable to change. It was amazing how changes in a five minute span to each task made for very different changes in the future (alternate futures?). Also that the Time-turners hadn't been destroyed yet was important to the plays.

The character of Delphi - at first I was suspicious of her, but as the story progressed, I thought she was being used as a catalyst of change for the Albus and Scorpius. (Duh) I should have known that it was a vitriol catalyst (Quick, where's all my Alchemy notes)! I was a bit surprised that Alchemy wasn't as prominent in this play as it was in the seven book series. Sigh.
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August 13, 2016, 11:21:32 AM
Reply #11

atschpe

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The character of Delphi - at first I was suspicious of her, but as the story progressed, I thought she was being used as a catalyst of change for the Albus and Scorpius. (Duh) I should have known that it was a vitriol catalyst (Quick, where's all my Alchemy notes)! I was a bit surprised that Alchemy wasn't as prominent in this play as it was in the seven book series. Sigh.

Oh good catch about Delphi being a catalyst (in many ways)! Amos would probably not even have dreamed to demand his son to be saved. Makes me wonder how strongly Delphi might have been influencing him. I doubt he'd have been imperiused. An elderly man can probably be swayed without such measures, but having that prophecy hidden in his room might have been a part of it.

Delphi is also a catalyst to the Harry-Albus relationship, as her actions get their tension ever tighter causing them to finally work through it. The same might be said for Draco.  Hmmm … I think I should explore this more in the Delphi thread :)

As for Alchemy – I think a lot of the alchemy came from the descriptions in the previous books. I still recall how you, HealerOne drew our attention to the use of colour when analysing the previous books. This being a play, I guess these details fall to set and costume design, which limits the possibility of weaving the symbology into the script.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 28, 2016, 01:52:46 PM
Reply #12

Evreka

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Perhaps it would be quicker to answer what I did see comming... not much.  :) But staying on the "did not see" path:

I think what surprised me most is how much the play falls back on past events, drawing heavily on Harry's fourth year and then when he survived the curse. It's as if the play was spot-lighting the pivotal points.
I too was expecting a new story rather than a flashback (of sorts) of the old one. I mean, Harry is Head of the Auror department, there must be a lot of Dark wizards and witches you could invent for him to interact with, without playing with Voldemort again.

But then again, this was intended as a play. As a way for HP fans - new and old - to see their favourite characters again and then, maybe, it's a more understandable decision?

I am very much in two minds about this story. When I regard it as a stand-alone story, loosely tied to the HP story of 7 books, I love it (except for one plot hole within its own story). But when I consider it as part of the main story, I feel like the plot gives way from under, it isn't consistent enough with the existing story. Or at least, I fail to see that it is... although I wouldn't mind to be convinced I'm wrong if anyone else have good arguments for it...

Another interesting point is how the play explores the various outcomes. Giving us two parallel worlds, to compare and contrast the main story line/world with. It teaches many lessons through this device.
I'm not entirely certain what you mean with lessons taught? Can you explain?



Halfway through I had mixed feelings about all the time travelling, but when Delphi's true interests were revealed, the feeling of repetition and falling back on the "old" dissolved.
What I mind most about the time travelling is that:
1) It doesn't tally entirely with time travelling in POA
2) If the devices work as suggested in CC, then nothing is resolved in this world and neither will it ever be. There'll always come some wizard or witch who reinvent a Time Turner, travels back and redo everything... Meaning it doesn't matter for the future what choices we do today, it only matters for a time, then by the blink of an eye, you might not even exist!  :o That's exceptionally depressing really...  :(  :dementor:

And Voldemort having a child? Voldemort - who doesn't understand love at all, would have child with Bellatrix? Why? He doesn't need an Heir, he intends to live forever! Yeah, right...  :shake: It doesn't ring true to me at all...

Concentrating on the story as stand-alone though:
I agree that Delphi's true story made for a new take on the plot and also gave credences to the rumour we first heard of when Albus met Scorpius. So there was a child... I liked that.  :) 


I am still however, trying to figure out who the cursed child is: Albus, in the shadow of his father's name and feeling unaccepted; Scorpius carrying the rumours about his birth, as well as being cursed by Delphi to influence Albus; or maybe even Harry himself as it was his cursing that set all the prophecies into action.
Interresting because I've also pondered a lot over this, but I wonder if it doesn't refer to Cedric? As Cedric was Cursed by the Killing Curse, and that is the fact that most of the plot evolves around.


The alternate world Cedric as Death Eater really took my breath away. Humiliation is one of the strongest motivations in a human's reaction to their circumstances, but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of Cedric going THAT far. It hurt my heart.
This is what I like the least of all about that plot, even as a play. Cedric's survival could have started some other chain reaction, where someone else would become a Death Eater with the same catastrophic result. For instance, if Cedric didn't win with Harry, Bagman wins his gold on the betted outcome and can pay back to the Goblins. In one way or another this could lead to him becoming a Death Eater which changes everything... But claiming that good, just, loyal, bright Cedric would become a Death Eater... that's so uncool!  :annoyed: >:(  :yuck:


It is really interesting that this time around Rowling is not as direct in her choice of title as before. Similarly, the nest and wings do not tie in as directly either.
I wonder if the brutal bindings forced on Albus and Scorpius after she blows her cover in front of them is symbolised by the thorns of that "nest" for want of a better word. Albus is lost in a thorn filled reality, in which he gets twisted further and further into deeper and deeper trouble, through the wings of time or something in that direction? But then again, then he should be the Cursed Child, shouldn't he? Interesting with a title you don't understand fully even after reading or seeing the play!   :ron:



But afterwards, I am with you HerHighandMightyness , Delphi certainly appears to be the best candidate for the Cursed Child.

On the other hand ... JKR could have used the title as sort of a red herring. Right? I mean we all thought maybe it could be Scorpius or Albus, but I don't think any of us put together that there could have been a child of old moldy Voldy.  I guess in the end I am saying that any of these three could have been the one which was cursed. Oh, and there is a small possibility that Draco's wife could be the cursed child because her bloodline had been  cursed.
It's a good point that there are many cursed children here, including Astoria - but I doubt her fate weighed in on the title.  ???



Now the point of Cedric going to the dark side - Pretty tough to swallow, however who knows what the forces were that turned him in that direction. It appeared that alternate evil state could have turned just about anybody to the Dark side - if they wanted to stay  alive. Just look how many good people do really bad stuff during wars. Evil is here and among us. If we don't have the mantle of love over us  - the dark side could look good. 
But according to the story, Cedric would supposedly have become a Death Eater before the Battle of Hogwarts. Otherwise he would have had no reason to kill Neville, before Neville killed the snake!

For that matter, if Neville had not killed the snake, then the trio would have done anything to have it killed. In the film's plot, if Neville had not severed Nagini's head when he did, the trio would have died. But in the book's plot, there would have been other opportunities to behead her, surely?


Good point, HealerOne. We only saw little glimpses of his character. Yes, he was a fair player (his honesty about hte Quidditch match; wanting to repay Harry's help), but there is also a insecurity there (not agreeing with the Potter-stinks badges, but not standing up for Harry either). He is a young man after all, trying to find his place in life.
But there is much more than that in POA and GOF showing where his heart is!

In POA he wanted to call off the match and have a replay when he learned that Harry was injured (by Dementors) when he (ie Cedric) got the Snitch. Oliver admitted the Hufflepuff's win was fair, Cedric thought it wasn't! When his father gloats about Cedric winning that match on the way to QWC, Cedric tries to make him see that it is a most unfair thing to gloat about.

That he doesn't stand up for the Potter stink badges to begin with, I can understand. After all it appeared to everyone as if Harry had found a foul way to become champion, of course that hurt Cedric's feelings! And still, he stayed fair and square. In the maze he is ready to turn away from the Cup, gold and glory by his own free will. So we know he secretely thought Harry deserved the victory, this turning point for him makes no sense at all, humiliation or not!   :(


Could this be, why Delphi chose to use Diggory? Because she knew of Cedric's potential (even before that alternate timeline was experienced) and the roll his father could have played in this development?
I think she interpreted the Prophecy to mean Cedric, Albus and Scrorpius.


Within the first 18 pages I decided that it probably should have been titled "Cursed Children." They all live in immense shadows of good and evil.
But then, as a Baby Boomer, I grew up in immense shadows of good and evil, wanting very much to understand what had really gone on in that great struggle that was World War II. How hard it is to live with the shadow of both victory and defeat, that is if you are a person who wants to get beneath the surface clichés.
I grew up watching the weight of war on my father, who never really recovered from the multiple traumas of so much death and destruction, so much blood. He wasn't easy to get close too, not that he wanted to be difficult.
Every adult male I knew seemed to be a war veteran. In the wizarding world, every child faces a similar situation. ...
Interesting and very valid comparison, I think.


Well, for starters, I was NOT expecting Delphi to be Voldemort's daughter. I was beginning to like her, and liked to friendship between her and Albus. ...
Same here, I thought she was like a Tonks to Harry, particularly with that awkward clumsiness and the hair... She seemed to fit in as the third "trio" member for Albus. Urgh, some friend!


Oh good catch about Delphi being a catalyst (in many ways)! Amos would probably not even have dreamed to demand his son to be saved. Makes me wonder how strongly Delphi might have been influencing him.
I think it is implied in the script that he was Confunded?

I doubt he'd have been imperiused. An elderly man can probably be swayed without such measures, but having that prophecy hidden in his room might have been a part of it.
The Prophecy is not in Amos room, but in Delphi's though...


Another thing that surprised me was the implication that Draco would have such a high position in Voldemort time. We know that the Malfoys didn't have any particular high position with Voldemort for the entire DH. It is Lucius who have to give his wand up to Voldemort, Draco failed to identify Harry (deliberately, I'll claim), he failed to kill Dumbledore. Why did he suddenly rise to such heights?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 02:03:06 PM by Evreka »
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September 07, 2016, 03:54:39 PM
Reply #13

atschpe

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Another interesting point is how the play explores the various outcomes. Giving us two parallel worlds, to compare and contrast the main story line/world with. It teaches many lessons through this device.
I'm not entirely certain what you mean with lessons taught? Can you explain?
I was referring to the different outcomes caused by small changes. It shows Scorpius and other characters (and through them us) how important the smallest decision can be. Bit like the "if a butterfly flaps its wing" kind of thing, but much more tangible, as Scorpius actually gets to experience and compare the various outcomes.

At the same time it teaches how important emotions and how you treat others is through Cedric. I can see him turning. Yes he is very caring and loyal, but at the same time he does not not counter his father either or fellow students: he only corrects his dad a bit and soon let's him just ramble on; he does not tell people to stop goading Harry, but rather waits for Harry to show what he is made off. This speaks of an insecurity to me. He knows what is right, but does not support it to the end. So if he is suddenly humiliated and perhaps faces the consequences of this over a long period of time, standing alone, just as he let Harry stand alone both with his father and with his fellow students, the emotions could really eat away at him. He is great as long as he finds support. And we know how excellent Voldemort is in offering support so as to "use" someone to his advantage.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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