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Author Topic: Discussing Delphi: Seriously Spoilery Stuff!  (Read 1298 times)

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August 02, 2016, 08:56:53 PM

atschpe

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Discussing Delphi: Seriously Spoilery Stuff!

One of the big gasps for many readers and audience members was the revelation that Voldemort had a child with Bellatrix. Talk about opening a can of worms! Discussion about this little "detail" has gone wild, taking us in all kinds of directions. Shall we gather our thoughts and theories here? Please bare in mind though to keep the discussion clean and PG13.

  • Delphi: the name seems to imply that the parent(s) naming her knew of the prophecy we find her trying to live out. Do you think Voldemort learnt of the prophecy and wanted to fulfill it by fathering a child? Or do you think there were other factors at play?
  • We are told she was born before the Battle of Hogwarts and going by what we know Bellatrix broke out of Azkaban in Order of the Phoenix. This gives us about a two year time frame for conception and birth to occur. Throw into the mix that there is o mention of Bellatrix looking pregnant or similar. How do you think this all developed. How close to the battle do you think she was born?
  • They cannot find any record of Delphi, so there seems to have been a lot of secrecy (and maybe concealment spells) around her. How many do you think knew about her, or plans about having such a child? Who do you think brought her up and how, seeing both parents died in the battle?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:38:49 AM by atschpe »


"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 05, 2016, 08:17:35 PM
Reply #1

JaneMarple9

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To be totally honest, I don't know much about the original "Delphi". Is she named after the original "Oracle of Delphi", which I know even less about? I was very surprised indeed to discover Delphi was "the cursed child" (or who I take to be the cursed child anyway!) of Bellatrix and Voldemort. However, it was possible for me. Is it presumed that she was born before DH Epilogue? I'd like to see a time-line of Delphi so we can make more sense of it. Bellatrix was Voldemort's most loyal Death Eater, she'd be proud to bear Voldemort's child

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August 06, 2016, 02:31:10 AM
Reply #2

wordsaremagic

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Bellatrix would, of course, be thrilled to let Voldemort do whatever he desired to her, but I have trouble imagining Voldemort having such a desire. Only mere mortals, mere ordinary humans, experience lust. Human desire, like human fear, is just a way of controlling people. Desire, then, is a weakness that I doubt he would allow himself to experience.
Whatever sexual impulse he may have seems to have been diverted into sadism.
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August 06, 2016, 12:34:58 PM
Reply #3

atschpe

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To be totally honest, I don't know much about the original "Delphi". Is she named after the original "Oracle of Delphi", which I know even less about? I was very surprised indeed to discover Delphi was "the cursed child" (or who I take to be the cursed child anyway!) of Bellatrix and Voldemort. However, it was possible for me. Is it presumed that she was born before DH Epilogue? I'd like to see a time-line of Delphi so we can make more sense of it. Bellatrix was Voldemort's most loyal Death Eater, she'd be proud to bear Voldemort's child
Yes, I think the name references to the oracle of Delphi. A place people came to from far and wide to learn about the outcome of a battle or similar. It was the set of Apollo, the God of wisdom. To me the choice of the name confirms that Voldemort really believed in the prophecies – the one about him and Harry, and now this one two. So if the prophecy tells him he needs a child … but still it seems out of character even considering this.

Delphi only says she was born before the Battle of Hogwarts:
Quote from:  Act IV Scene 11 (Kindle)
DELPHI
I am from the future. The child of Bellatrix Lestrange and you. I was born in Malfoy Manor before the Battle of Hogwarts. A battle you are going to lose. I have come to save you.
HARRY/VOLDEMORT turns. She meets his eye.
It was Rodolphus Lestrange, Bellatric's loyal husband, who on return from Azkaban told me who I was and revealed the prophecy he thought I was destined to fulfil. I am your daughter, sir.
This means that Bella was either pregnant or a new mother when the trio is taken to Malfoy Manor (puts a whole new spin on the scene there). If she is pregnant, she would probably have concealed that pregnancy in some way (magically) as it is not mentioned. Plus, would that not be picked up when Hermione took Polyjuice to impersonate her? So, if you cannot conceal it or polyjuice would reflect it, we could narrow down Delphi's birth to before the trio goes to the Manor, but at least 9 months after Bellatrix esacpes Azkaban. I wonder if the death eaters or just Bella discovered this new prophecy in the hall of prophecies whilst they were there at the end of Order of the Phoenix, which set this whole thing in motion …

Bellatrix would, of course, be thrilled to let Voldemort do whatever he desired to her, but I have trouble imagining Voldemort having such a desire. Only mere mortals, mere ordinary humans, experience lust. Human desire, like human fear, is just a way of controlling people. Desire, then, is a weakness that I doubt he would allow himself to experience.
Whatever sexual impulse he may have seems to have been diverted into sadism.
I wondered if Bellatrix could have grabbed a love potion. It is again referenced a few times in the play, and she does seem infatuated with him. It would also be a nice parallel to how Voldemort's father was influenced. Plus, as Voldemort disregards the power of love, he might be susceptible to its magic without knowing. Or, as I mentioned above he lays so much by a prophecy that he makes the exception. Either way, I am not sure … I even feel like I am missing something here.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 01:02:02 PM by atschpe »
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 13, 2016, 11:26:15 AM
Reply #4

atschpe

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HealerOne made an excellent point that Delphi was a catalyst for Albus and Scorpius in the play. I would dare to go furhter that she is a central catalyst to many things happening in the plot. I doubt Amos would have demanded his son to be saved without her (or he would have been demanding a timeturner as soon as Harry had brought back his son's body). Harry and Albus' relationship grows thanks to all the upheaval Delphi caused; Harry and Draco both face their personal demons and I am sure there are many other details I currently haven't thought of.

So whilst Delphi really makes a huge mess of things, could we say she also caused a lot of good?
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 28, 2016, 12:04:24 AM
Reply #5

roonwit

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I also have trouble seeing why Voldemort would want or agree to have a child, as he was focused on living forever rather than preserving his line through his children, though perhaps he would see a child (suitably raised) as an able but loyal servant as Delphi (short for Delphini which no-one seems to have mentioned yet) undoubtedly would be, and presumably was as the Augurey.
Her birth and Bella's pregnancy would have to be extremely well concealed, because the other inhabitants of Malfoy Manor, including Lucius and Cissy and Draco in school holidays and the inhabitants of the cellar, would surely have told the Ministry what they knew after the Battle of Hogwarts if they were able to. There is also the question as to why her birth would be concealed - it clearly makes sense after the Battle of Hogwarts and perhaps in HBP if she was born then,  but from DH onwards Voldemort would assume he would be in power for ever so there would be no point.
As to timing, we as readers see Bella in the Ministry at the end of OotP, at Spinner's End in HBP, and in DH at Malfoy Manor at the start and when the trio are captured, also as Voldemort finds out that Cup horcrux was stolen, and in the Battle of Hogwarts, possibly other times I have missed. So if we assume the reader would have been told if Bella was obviously pregnant, there would have been time in HBP (if she was well hidden when the Ministry searched Malfoy Manor), and perhaps in DH before the trio was captured, though it would presumably also depend on how much a pregnancy would show up beneath wizarding robes.

Incidentally, I don't think Bella would have dared use a love potion on Voldemort, nor would she be alive afterwards if she had.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 12:07:05 AM by roonwit »
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August 28, 2016, 08:47:54 AM
Reply #6

paint it Black

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It seems to me that these conundrums about Delphi are exactly what happen when one allows new information to be shoehorned into an existing seven-book saga. :/  All of the pieces just don't fit, and there are way too many unanswered questions.

Surely the name "Delphi" (from Delphini) is immediately identifiable as being connected to a prophecy, but do we even know if this is the name that she was raised with?  She gives her name as Delphini Diggory, and we know that she is no Diggory.  We are only told that she was raised by Euphemia Rowle, and that Rowle was paid to do so.  Perhaps Delphini only gives herself this name after learning of the prophecy.  I'd think that if her birth parents wanted to keep her a secret, they wouldn't necessarily name her for the reason that she was conceived.

Supposedly, Rodolphus Lestrange told Delphi of her parentage "on return from Azkaban."  Really, they released Rodolphus, guilty of countless murders plus the torture of the Longbottoms?  I wouldn't think so.  :shake:  If he'd broken out of Azkaban, I'd think recapturing him would have been Priority #1 for the Ministry.

I wonder if the death eaters or just Bella discovered this new prophecy in the hall of prophecies whilst they were there at the end of Order of the Phoenix, which set this whole thing in motion …

We know prophecies can only be retrieved by those about whom they were made.  If this one had Bellatrix's name on it and she was able to retrieve it, perhaps she shared this information only with LV, and was able to convince him that they needed to fulfill the prophecy.  But, the prophecy reads thus:

"When spares are spared, when time is turned, when unseen children murder their fathers:

Then will the Dark Lord return."

So... how would Bellatrix convince Voldemort that the words of this prophecy meant that they needed to have a child together?  :ron:

Also, this prophecy mentions the "return" of the Dark Lord, which must mean that he's... er... going someplace (dying?) if he is to "return".  Which brings me to one of the thing that gets under my skin the most about this whole Delphi character: Did Voldemort go into the Battle of Hogwarts knowing that he had a child?  To me, this puts a whole different spin on just how high the stakes would seem to him at this point.  If he knew that he had someone to carry on his blood (though I'm a bit surprised that he'd even want to pass on Riddle blood) and his Dark mission should he die, I think his ultimate need for survival might possibly be tinged just a bit.  This puts a different spin on the whole ultimate battle between Harry and Voldemort for me.

Bellatrix would, of course, be thrilled to let Voldemort do whatever he desired to her, but I have trouble imagining Voldemort having such a desire. Only mere mortals, mere ordinary humans, experience lust. Human desire, like human fear, is just a way of controlling people. Desire, then, is a weakness that I doubt he would allow himself to experience.
Whatever sexual impulse he may have seems to have been diverted into sadism.

I agree with this, and I also agree with roonwit that he would not consent nor forgive the use of a love potion.  I can only conclude that Bellatrix must have convinced him that having a child would be important to his continued existence.  Fear of mortality was one of his greatest weaknesses, and she could have played on it.  Even though she was a sadist of the highest order herself, I think she was not immune to desire.

...Bella was either pregnant or a new mother when the trio is taken to Malfoy Manor (puts a whole new spin on the scene there). If she is pregnant, she would probably have concealed that pregnancy in some way (magically) as it is not mentioned. Plus, would that not be picked up when Hermione took Polyjuice to impersonate her? So, if you cannot conceal it or polyjuice would reflect it, we could narrow down Delphi's birth to before the trio goes to the Manor, but at least 9 months after Bellatrix esacpes Azkaban.
Her birth and Bella's pregnancy would have to be extremely well concealed, because the other inhabitants of Malfoy Manor, including Lucius and Cissy and Draco in school holidays and the inhabitants of the cellar, would surely have told the Ministry what they knew after the Battle of Hogwarts if they were able to....
As to timing, we as readers see Bella in the Ministry at the end of OotP, at Spinner's End in HBP, and in DH at Malfoy Manor at the start and when the trio are captured, also as Voldemort finds out that Cup horcrux was stolen, and in the Battle of Hogwarts, possibly other times I have missed. So if we assume the reader would have been told if Bella was obviously pregnant, there would have been time in HBP (if she was well hidden when the Ministry searched Malfoy Manor), and perhaps in DH before the trio was captured, though it would presumably also depend on how much a pregnancy would show up beneath wizarding robes.

I agree that it's likely that Hermione would have been able to detect a pregnancy if she were polyjuiced as Bellatrix, so I think the child must have been born before the trio's presence at Malfoy Manor.  If Delphi had been born in March, sometime before Draco came home for the Easter holidays, then she could have been conceived the previous June.  Maybe Voldemort felt that his child would be at great risk if Dumbledore were alive, and waited until after DD was killed (which occurred in June) before going ahead with conceiving the child.

There is also the question as to why her birth would be concealed - it clearly makes sense after the Battle of Hogwarts and perhaps in HBP if she was born then,  but from DH onwards Voldemort would assume he would be in power for ever so there would be no point.

If he considered Delphi as his backup key to immortality, perhaps he wanted to keep her a secret just as he did with his horcruxes.

Do you think that Euphemia Rowle knew the parentage of the child that she raised?  Also, I know that Delphi was not allowed to go to Hogwarts, but wouldn't her birth appear in the Big Book?  If Muggle-born wizards get a Hogwarts letter, why wouldn't she?  And if she did, wouldn't the Ministry and those at Hogwarts be aware of her existence?

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September 04, 2016, 12:41:56 AM
Reply #7

roonwit

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It seems to me that these conundrums about Delphi are exactly what happen when one allows new information to be shoehorned into an existing seven-book saga. :/  All of the pieces just don't fit, and there are way too many unanswered questions.

Surely the name "Delphi" (from Delphini) is immediately identifiable as being connected to a prophecy, but do we even know if this is the name that she was raised with?  She gives her name as Delphini Diggory, and we know that she is no Diggory.  We are only told that she was raised by Euphemia Rowle, and that Rowle was paid to do so.  Perhaps Delphini only gives herself this name after learning of the prophecy.  I'd think that if her birth parents wanted to keep her a secret, they wouldn't necessarily name her for the reason that she was conceived.
She could also have got the name from a Naming Seer (which might explain why Radolphus thought the prophecy was linked to her). Perhaps she never had a surname - a first name alone gives very little information to trace someone with - or it could have been Lestrange (Radolphus would probably be assumed to be her father by those who didn't know), however I still think that there was no reason to conceal Delphi's birth at the time she was born.

Supposedly, Rodolphus Lestrange told Delphi of her parentage "on return from Azkaban."  Really, they released Rodolphus, guilty of countless murders plus the torture of the Longbottoms?  I wouldn't think so.  :shake:  If he'd broken out of Azkaban, I'd think recapturing him would have been Priority #1 for the Ministry.
He would have spent 14 years in prison before he escaped and perhaps another 20 after the Battle of Hogwarts (it seems likely Delphi wouldn't wait too long after being told before she acted) so he might have been released and his life sentence reduced under Kingsley's Ministry. We also don't know Rodolphus killed anyone - he was injured in the Seven Potters escape, and isn't mentioned after that so he might not have been an active Death Eater from then on.

We know prophecies can only be retrieved by those about whom they were made.  If this one had Bellatrix's name on it and she was able to retrieve it, perhaps she shared this information only with LV, and was able to convince him that they needed to fulfill the prophecy.  But, the prophecy reads thus:

"When spares are spared, when time is turned, when unseen children murder their fathers:

Then will the Dark Lord return."

So... how would Bellatrix convince Voldemort that the words of this prophecy meant that they needed to have a child together?  :ron:
I think the prophecy would have been made after the Battle of Hogwarts so Voldemort returning would make more sense. I imagine it was heard by someone who passed it onto Rodolphus, so the Hall of Prophecies was never involved, because it only mentions the spares, children, fathers and the Dark Lord, not Bellatrix nor anyone assisting the prophecy to come true, so I don't think even Delphi could retrieve the prophecy.
Do you think that Euphemia Rowle knew the parentage of the child that she raised?  Also, I know that Delphi was not allowed to go to Hogwarts, but wouldn't her birth appear in the Big Book?  If Muggle-born wizards get a Hogwarts letter, why wouldn't she?  And if she did, wouldn't the Ministry and those at Hogwarts be aware of her existence?
Her name would be in the book unless she was outside Hogwarts' catchment area when she started showing magic, or somehow shielded from detection. As it seems to have been a big secret, I doubt Euphemia Rowle was told who Delphi actually was, just that she should be brought up in the dark arts.
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