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Author Topic: Looking back: Consistent or Conundrums? Seriously Spolilery  (Read 1157 times)

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August 08, 2016, 10:01:06 AM

Rudius Hagrid

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The use of time turners is an interesting thought but I can't help but think  the way they were handled was a little inconsistent with how we saw them handled in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Our previous interaction with this story dynamic was that while the characters indeed went back in time and influenced events, we saw this as part of the timeline and in effect the interaction of the time turner seems to have been rather seamless and in hindsight the people involved could tell exactly where the events were influenced by their future selves.  One gets the idea that travelling in time didn't alter the timeline as much as was part of the timeline and things happened as they were supposed to.

In the play however we see three distinct outcomes due to the tampering with causality, and the world changes as a result.

Do you think this is a break from past writings or is it possible we only saw the best possible outcome in Prisoners Of Azkaban or a limitation in the time turner Hermione had available to her?


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August 08, 2016, 10:36:56 AM
Reply #1

atschpe

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Comparing the two, it feels like Prisoner of Azkaban (PoA) shows the "right" way of using a timeturner. Hermione does no harm in going to her extra lessons. And under Dumbeldore's guidance a lot of good came from the tampering-with-time when they saved Sirius and Buckbeak. I would think Dumbledore on the one hand recognised what was happening that evening, but also when suggesting they use the time-turner knew that the outcome would not be catastrophic.

In the Cursed Child (CC), Harry wisely refuses to even consider this course of action. His son and Scorpius, however, do not have the greater insight (and have never used one before to know how it works, what to look out for or similar). So they end up using the device in the "wrong" way. Back in PoA Hermione references what can happen if you meddle with time and offers an excellent example of this.

So in a way I feel like they both fit the time-turner system. What tripped me a bit, is in CC they indicate that the old time turner could only go back an hour – though I thought that Harry and Hermione went back some 3 or 4 hours (they go back to Buckbeak's beheading which is at sunset and are to return to the Hospital wing before 12 is struck).

This brings me to another thought: The time turners can only turn back either an hour (as stated in CC) or a few (as in PoA). This seems to be an inbuilt safety mechanism to forgo big/huge time-tampering. Now the Death Eaters make one with bells and whistles (and the one in Draco's possession is nice and golden with no time restraints) that can go back as far as you like so it seems. Trust the them to only go focus on tampering without any thought for the dangers. I mean someone who got the device in their hands could have gone back to prevent Voldemort being born … though maybe some Death Eaters might secretly liked that idea …
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 09, 2016, 01:54:00 AM
Reply #2

RiverSpirit

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All of this time turner stuff has such a “Back To The Future” feel about it. I agree that in POA the use of the time turner in the more than capable hands of Hermione was undertaken with thought and purpose. In CC Albus and Scorpius seemed to have no concept of consequences or that for every action there is a reaction when you venture into the 4th dimension.

The fact that the boys interacted with Hermione during their first travel was significant enough to set off a chain of events that changed not only her future but the future of Ron, Rose, Hugo, Padma and many others. With Ron and Hermione not marrying Harry perhaps does no longer benefit from their input into his life. Is this the cause of “Harsh Harry”? Hermione’s future heads off in a completely different direction and Ron is obviously not happy with his lot in life as husband of Padma and father of a child who seems to take after Fred and George in behaviour.

The fact that the boys then try to undo what they have done leads to a catastrophic outcome similar to Hill Valley in “Back To The Future II” where chaos rules due to the rise of Biff Tannen. The lives of all who are magical is turned upside down as Voldemort takes charge. My heart was broken to see Hermione living a life in fear and not getting the chance to achieve her potential.

What did you think of the “what would have been if…” scenarios? I loved the glimpse into the world where Voldemort won the Battle of Hogwarts and life was so different, a world without happiness, a world without Harry!
  
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August 10, 2016, 02:28:27 PM
Reply #3

HealerOne

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So in a way I feel like they both fit the time-turner system. What tripped me a bit, is in CC they indicate that the old time turner could only go back an hour – though I thought that Harry and Hermione went back some 3 or 4 hours (they go back to Buckbeak's beheading which is at sunset and are to return to the Hospital wing before 12 is struck).

This brings me to another thought: The time turners can only turn back either an hour (as stated in CC) or a few (as in PoA). This seems to be an inbuilt safety mechanism to forgo big/huge time-tampering. Now the Death Eaters make one with bells and whistles (and the one in Draco's possession is nice and golden with no time restraints) that can go back as far as you like so it seems. Trust the them to only go focus on tampering without any thought for the dangers. I mean someone who got the device in their hands could have gone back to prevent Voldemort being born … though maybe some Death Eaters might secretly liked that idea …

I had a different impression of the original Time-Turner that was used in POA. this was based on two quotes from CC. First Hermione calls that Time-Turner " an hour-reversal turner" (Part One: Act One, Scene Five) which to me indicates it turns back an hour at a time, i.e., with each turn of the dial - essentially like a wind-up watch that can be made to go backwards with a turn of the watch stem. Then later in the play (Part One: Act Two Scene Sixteen) Scorpius quotes Professor Croaker's law " the furthest someone can go back in time without the possibility of serious harm to the traveler or time itself is five hours." So that would cover what was done in POA.

Now what the Lucius did by building the two Time-Turners that were used in CC is nothing but crazy. Apparently he was so arrogant that he had them made just so he could have them as part of a collection (Reminiscent of Hepzibah Smith's desire for shiny objects to collect).  Somehow Theodore Nott was in possession of the 'flawed' one that only remained back in time for five minutes. How Nott got that one is a mystery plus he was not the smartest guy on the block. What if he had tried using that one? Hopefully he didn't know what the thing did, only that it was something to collect. The one Lucius had cursed Draco in that people thought he and Astoria had Scorpius via using the Time-Turner. Draco admits that his father "never would have used them". Which does reveal that in some ways Lucius was not a super foolish man.

It is no wonder that the MoM had Hermione go through all sorts of hoops before she was allowed to use the Time-Turner - very dangerous objects as we see in these plays.

As far as a way to bring forward a new Harry Potter story into the more modern day, I was surprised that it was used again. It is a very difficult thing to write Time continuum interference stories, so I applaud the writers for even attempting it, much less being able to pull off a coherent, believable story.
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August 10, 2016, 04:44:04 PM
Reply #4

atschpe

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So in a way I feel like they both fit the time-turner system. What tripped me a bit, is in CC they indicate that the old time turner could only go back an hour – though I thought that Harry and Hermione went back some 3 or 4 hours (they go back to Buckbeak's beheading which is at sunset and are to return to the Hospital wing before 12 is struck).

This brings me to another thought: The time turners can only turn back either an hour (as stated in CC) or a few (as in PoA). This seems to be an inbuilt safety mechanism to forgo big/huge time-tampering. Now the Death Eaters make one with bells and whistles (and the one in Draco's possession is nice and golden with no time restraints) that can go back as far as you like so it seems. Trust the them to only go focus on tampering without any thought for the dangers. I mean someone who got the device in their hands could have gone back to prevent Voldemort being born … though maybe some Death Eaters might secretly liked that idea …

I had a different impression of the original Time-Turner that was used in POA. this was based on two quotes from CC. First Hermione calls that Time-Turner " an hour-reversal turner" (Part One: Act One, Scene Five) which to me indicates it turns back an hour at a time, i.e., with each turn of the dial - essentially like a wind-up watch that can be made to go backwards with a turn of the watch stem. Then later in the play (Part One: Act Two Scene Sixteen) Scorpius quotes Professor Croaker's law " the furthest someone can go back in time without the possibility of serious harm to the traveler or time itself is five hours." So that would cover what was done in POA.[/color]

Aha! thanks for clearing that up. I was confused (I blame it on all that time travelling … must be jetlag  :zzz: )

Yes, then it works within the bigger picture of the potter books. Interesting that they indicate 5 hours. I wonder if that is based on something specific (time between meals so that you do not have to show up twice to the same meal? :p )
Now what the Lucius did by building the two Time-Turners that were used in CC is nothing but crazy. Apparently he was so arrogant that he had them made just so he could have them as part of a collection (Reminiscent of Hepzibah Smith's desire for shiny objects to collect).  Somehow Theodore Nott was in possession of the 'flawed' one that only remained back in time for five minutes. How Nott got that one is a mystery plus he was not the smartest guy on the block. What if he had tried using that one? Hopefully he didn't know what the thing did, only that it was something to collect. The one Lucius had cursed Draco in that people thought he and Astoria had Scorpius via using the Time-Turner. Draco admits that his father "never would have used them". Which does reveal that in some ways Lucius was not a super foolish man.


Could it be that the time-turner that Nott got his hands on was a duplicate, a bit like the fake sword of Gryffindor. E.g. he stole the one he saw displayed say in the cabinet at Malfoy Manor (or where ever Lucius liked to look at it), not knowing it was not the real thing – Lucius having wisely hidden the real and thus dangerous object well out of sight.

It also makes we wonder why Lucius would want a time turner of all things? Is this a sign that he wished he had done things differently in the distance past? Something specific he dreams of changing? He seems to collect things not just because they are expensive, but also for the history, meaning, or similar behind it. And this is not a dark-magic object, but a dangerous neutral one.

On the other hand  it could have been made specifically when Voldemort &co. learnt about the new prophecy (I have a feeling this happened when they were in the Hall of Prophecy at the end of OotP), when they realised what had to be done to fulfill the prophecy. With Voldemort dead Lucius could have quickly hidden the dangerous object, shielding its existence with the
5-min egg-timer duplicate.

As far as a way to bring forward a new Harry Potter story into the more modern day, I was surprised that it was used again. It is a very difficult thing to write Time continuum interference stories, so I applaud the writers for even attempting it, much less being able to pull off a coherent, believable story.


I was surprised, too, as it was used rather heavily in PoA and then the means to repeat this plot-twist was destroyed in OotP and even highlighted again later on when they explained why they could not continue taking Hagrid's classes. It really is an interesting choice to take this route. Not only does it bring back the time-travel device, but the old nemesis (Voldemort). So rather than a clean cut, this creates a very close interweaving with the past, to really underline how much the past influences the present.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 17, 2016, 10:13:45 PM
Reply #5

Rudius Hagrid

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The difference between competent use of the time turner and inept use of the time turner makes sense to me.  I always thought the story of PoA illustrated a self contained time loop where the time line is the way it is and the time travel aspect is part of the time continuum and is in fact ... not destiny as much as the way things work out because that's how it would happen because of the choices the people involved would make in that scenario.

The fact that ill use is possible does make the statement that 'you must not be seen, people have gone back in time and killed themselves by mistake' actually a real threat and not something told to the kids using time turners stick to the intended purpose.
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August 18, 2016, 03:42:57 PM
Reply #6

atschpe

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Yes, Hermione's warning rings very true now that we have Cursed Child. But I think she was more talking within the possibilities of the time-turner they had available (i.e. go back no more than a couple of hours) – she comments on what (previous) Harry would think if (time-traveled) Harry would suddenly burst into the room and how that could lead to problems if not death. In Cursed Child we see people winking out of existence, because they are killed later on (Harry) or never existed due their parents having met. Makes me wonder if not only love and music are very high-level magic topics but time, too.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 18, 2016, 08:18:11 PM
Reply #7

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I'm still trying to work out why the Minister for Magic's door would open to Alohomora. I doubt that Hermione was thinking along the same lines as Dumbledore may have when setting puzzles
and riddles for the trio to solve as they moved Harry closer to getting, but not using the sorcerer's stone back in the day. I think Minerva McGonagall hits closer to the mark
about treating the prototype to the golden turner with more thorough protection. I do understand why some branch of the ministry would keep, but not necessarily use, Nott's acquisition.
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August 31, 2016, 12:07:16 AM
Reply #8

roonwit

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I agree that the time turner use in PoA and CC are inconsistent, though the warnings about time turner use in PoA match the CC use, as does the piece on time turners that was on the original Pottermore. The problem is that the events in PoA are a single consistent course of events with a causality loop - Harry is only able to go back in time because he casts the patronus charm to save himself from the dementors after he has gone back in time, which fits with the time travel model where you can't change the past, you just live the same set of events from a different perspective. However in the CC model of time travel you rewrite events each time you use the time turner. Under this model the only way the PoA events can occur is if either someone else saved Harry the first time and made it look as if Harry did it, or what we saw was the result of one or more previous uses of the time turner getting to the consistent course of events we read in the book.

With regard to Theodore Nott, I wonder if he was the person who created the time turners and built the prototype was done first to check it worked (probably only testing it over short time jumps in case he had to come back the long way) before the more saleable version with better styling.

Another minor time turner conundrum is why Scorpius came out of the lake with Albus after repairing history. He spent a few days in the Voldemort reality so Scorpius should have got out of the lake a few days after Albus.
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September 07, 2016, 04:01:25 PM
Reply #9

atschpe

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Another minor time turner conundrum is why Scorpius came out of the lake with Albus after repairing history. He spent a few days in the Voldemort reality so Scorpius should have got out of the lake a few days after Albus.
To me, Scorpius went back to 2nd task to prevent what they changed. I.e. this is not a parallel occurrence on a different time plain, but exactly the same one (which means for a short moment there were two Scorpius' there).  A bit like Harry and Hermione arriving back at the door of the  Hospital wing in time to hear themselves leaving.
So Scorpius and Albus come out of that time-turner incident together as if Scorpius' little stint in the alternative timeline never happened (and to Albus it never did, but for what he later learns).
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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