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Author Topic: Fidelius Charms: Faux Pas or Fraught? [i]Here be Spoilers[/i]  (Read 728 times)

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August 17, 2016, 09:28:44 PM

Rudius Hagrid

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The final climax takes place in Godric's Hollow on the night James and Lily died.  At that time there was a Fidelius charm on the house and in theory no-one should have been able to see the house unless that sneaky little bas... Wormtail had told them.

Yet everyone seems to know where it is.  Is this an inconsistency in the play or do you think there is a valid reason why all and sundry know where the house is?

Aaaand Discuss:  :train:


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August 17, 2016, 09:35:13 PM
Reply #1

atschpe

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To me, it felt like they could see the house because they had learnt the secret. Everyone there (maybe not Delphi, who was not poised to actually go to/find the house) had been told the story, after the charm broke, and thus could be considered secret keepers, similar to how the Order members all became Secret Keepers after Dumbledore's death. So the Wormtails death along with the time travel makes it both confusing and possible for them to actually see the house and its occupants.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 17, 2016, 09:45:44 PM
Reply #2

Rudius Hagrid

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So as I understand it when the secret keeper dies the people who know become the new secret keepers, so the secret remains such until Wormtail died, not Dumbledore, who was the secret keeper for Grimmauld Place.

It actually raises the question: How could Hermione see it in Deathly Hallows, considering she wasn't told where the house was by wormtail?

Here's something else to ponder as well:  how does time travel affect the fidelius charm?  If you go back to a time when the secret was controlled by one soul, who did not tell you the secret, and in fact before you were told the secret in the first place would you still be able to see the house?

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August 18, 2016, 09:49:19 AM
Reply #3

atschpe

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Yes, I don't have the books handy, but someone explains how the death of Secret Keeper (Dumbledore for Grimmauld place) passes on the secret to each person he told (the order members). So Wormtail's death would do the same. Yet, with the house having been blown up with the curse rebounding on Voldemort the fidelius charm was also broken, or Hagrid would not have been able to go and find Harry.

As for Hermione seeing the house in Deathly Hallows: Many other witches and wizards can see it too, which is shown by the sign placed there and all the graffiti on it. So once again the rebound of the Advada Kedavra must have totally broken the Fidelius charm.

As for time travel and the fidelius charm: I think if the charm were still in place and the secret not divulged to the traveler, then they would not be able to see what is hidden. The question would be though, if this would also hold true if you traveled back to a point in time before the fidelius charm was not yet performed. This could cause an interesting problem, that a potential murderer in possession of a time device could then circumvent the charm to a degree, in at least figuring out where the place is geographically; either to go back in time and murder, or to then set off say a bomb back in the present time.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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August 30, 2016, 08:31:51 PM
Reply #4

roonwit

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Yes, I don't have the books handy, but someone explains how the death of Secret Keeper (Dumbledore for Grimmauld place) passes on the secret to each person he told (the order members). So Wormtail's death would do the same. Yet, with the house having been blown up with the curse rebounding on Voldemort the fidelius charm was also broken, or Hagrid would not have been able to go and find Harry.

As for Hermione seeing the house in Deathly Hallows: Many other witches and wizards can see it too, which is shown by the sign placed there and all the graffiti on it. So once again the rebound of the Advada Kedavra must have totally broken the Fidelius charm.
Yes, I think the Fidelius Charm must have been broken by the time Hagrid arrives, either because Wormtail ended the spell somehow, because of the death of James and Lily, or the destruction of the house. And you are right, Mr. Weasley explains to Harry that after the death of Dumbledore, each of the 20 or so people who knew the secret were now secret keepers for Grimmauld Place(DH Ch. 6).
So as Albus, Scorpius and the rescue party could see the Potter house, presumably the fidelius charm doesn't make those who already know the secret forget it, or if does, it only does so at the moment the spell is cast, as it didn't make them forget the ex-secret. One possible complication is that Harry would have to have known the secret to allow him to live in the Potter house (probably he was there when the spell was cast) so presumably he would have become a secret keeper when Wormtail died, had the secret still been in force.
As for time travel and the fidelius charm: I think if the charm were still in place and the secret not divulged to the traveler, then they would not be able to see what is hidden. The question would be though, if this would also hold true if you traveled back to a point in time before the fidelius charm was not yet performed. This could cause an interesting problem, that a potential murderer in possession of a time device could then circumvent the charm to a degree, in at least figuring out where the place is geographically; either to go back in time and murder, or to then set off say a bomb back in the present time.
I think it is difficult to answer this as we don't know what a Fidelius Charm charm does to those who already know the secret when it is cast, that is how much of a secret the secret has to be when the spell is cast. Probably the easiest thing to do what they are trying to achieve before the Fidelius Charm is cast, so it cann't interfere,
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September 04, 2016, 08:22:33 PM
Reply #5

Evreka

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It actually raises the question: How could Hermione see it in Deathly Hallows, considering she wasn't told where the house was by wormtail?
I would assume that because Wormtail told Voldemort 31 October 1981, and then proceeded to kill those hiding and utterly destroy the house, the Charm broke. That's why both Harry, Hermione and all the unknown people who have written messages on the sign in front of it, could see it.
Quote
[DH, Chapter 17 Bathildas's Secret] He [Harry] could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with James and Lily.


Here's something else to ponder as well:  how does time travel affect the fidelius charm?  If you go back to a time when the secret was controlled by one soul, who did not tell you the secret, and in fact before you were told the secret in the first place would you still be able to see the house?
If we go back to a time when it's controlled by one soul and the time traveller did not know the secret in their "own present time", then I assume they don't see it in the past. However, if they have ever found out the truth in their "own present time", I assume they still see the thing in the past as well, because they are in on the secret.


I think it is difficult to answer this as we don't know what a Fidelius Charm charm does to those who already know the secret when it is cast, that is how much of a secret the secret has to be when the spell is cast. Probably the easiest thing to do what they are trying to achieve before the Fidelius Charm is cast, so it cann't interfere,
  :crabbegoyle: It seems your text has been truncated roonwit and I'm not really sure of what you meant to say??



What vexes me most in regards to what Albus and Scorpius sees, however, is that James and Lily is seen wandering around outdoors with their baby in a stroller (?).
Quote
[DH,  the letter from Lily to Sirius that Harry reads in Sirius' bedroom]
James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also, Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions. ...

I've always taken this to mean that this family is hiding inside, James have sometimes used his Invisibility Cloak to make excursions outdoors but with the Cloak gone he can not risk it. Yet oddly enough, in CC the family is moving around outside as well. It doesn't really tally with the family in hiding, I think.

Another interesting thing about the letter quoted above, is that another part of it mentions that Bathilda Bagshott visits them often. This means Peter must have told her where they are, although if it was on a written note Bathilda might not have known it was Peter (and not Sirius) who wrote it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 08:24:54 PM by Evreka »
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September 04, 2016, 09:12:50 PM
Reply #6

roonwit

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Here's something else to ponder as well:  how does time travel affect the fidelius charm?  If you go back to a time when the secret was controlled by one soul, who did not tell you the secret, and in fact before you were told the secret in the first place would you still be able to see the house?
If we go back to a time when it's controlled by one soul and the time traveller did not know the secret in their "own present time", then I assume they don't see it in the past. However, if they have ever found out the truth in their "own present time", I assume they still see the thing in the past as well, because they are in on the secret.
I agree with this. If you don't know the secret then going back in time to a point after the fidelius charm was cast won't help you, and conversely if you do know the secret, you still know the secret (with the consequences that gives) if you go back in time.
I think it is difficult to answer this as we don't know what a Fidelius Charm charm does to those who already know the secret when it is cast, that is how much of a secret the secret has to be when the spell is cast. Probably the easiest thing to do what they are trying to achieve before the Fidelius Charm is cast, so it cann't interfere,
  :crabbegoyle: It seems your text has been truncated roonwit and I'm not really sure of what you meant to say??
I think my point was going to be that we don't know what happens to people who know already know the secret when the fidelius charm is cast - they might continue to know the secret or the charm might make them forget it. If it causes them to forget, then going back in time to before the charm was cast wouldn't help anyone know it back in the future. However they can avoid the problem by going back before the fidelius charm was cast and do whatever the fidelius charm was stopping them doing before it can block it.
What vexes me most in regards to what Albus and Scorpius sees, however, is that James and Lily is seen wandering around outdoors with their baby in a stroller (?).
Quote
[DH,  the letter from Lily to Sirius that Harry reads in Sirius' bedroom]
James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also, Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions. ...

I've always taken this to mean that this family is hiding inside, James have sometimes used his Invisibility Cloak to make excursions outdoors but with the Cloak gone he can not risk it. Yet oddly enough, in CC the family is moving around outside as well. It doesn't really tally with the family in hiding, I think.
That looked wrong to me as well, though it depending on what exactly the secret was. For example, they might be able to leave the house, for example if the secret was "The Potters are hiding in Godric's Hollow" (assuming that is a valid secret) then it might still protect them in the village, though I had also thought the charm only applied to the house itself (perhaps including the garden, but not beyond that).
Another interesting thing about the letter quoted above, is that another part of it mentions that Bathilda Bagshott visits them often. This means Peter must have told her where they are, although if it was on a written note Bathilda might not have known it was Peter (and not Sirius) who wrote it.
As they are talking about Harry's birthday, that would probably place the letter soon after 31st July, but I think the fidelius charm was only cast a few days before the Potters were killed on 31st October, so the visits by Bathilda probably pre-date the charm. The Potters were probably just hiding in the ordinary way or protected by lesser charms at that point (anyone who has defied Voldemort 3 times each would be well advised to make sure their location isn't widely known).
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September 05, 2016, 09:41:08 PM
Reply #7

Evreka

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  :crabbegoyle: It seems your text has been truncated roonwit and I'm not really sure of what you meant to say??

I think my point was going to be that we don't know what happens to people who know already know the secret when the fidelius charm is cast - they might continue to know the secret or the charm might make them forget it.
Aha, I see. Thanks for the explanation. :) I do think we sort of got an answer in OOP and DH though. While the Secret holds, regardless of how many are aware of it because they have been told so by the Secret Keeper, it is only one person (the Secret Keeper) who can divulge the secret to someone who is not privy of it - or at all. However if that person dies, everyone who knows the Secret becomes secret Keepers and can divulge it to others. That's why the Order fears that Snape would divulge GP12 as the Headquarters of the Order after Albus' death.

So I would assume that if you know a Secret - for any reason - in your own "present time" and you went back in time to a point where the original Secret Keeper is alive and silent about it, you are still aware of the Secret, but you can't tell anyone else about it in the past.

However they can avoid the problem by going back before the fidelius charm was cast and do whatever the fidelius charm was stopping them doing before it can block it.
Which is yet another reason to find these time travels so depressing when they work the way CC suggests instead of how POA suggested it.  ::)  :o


What vexes me most in regards to what Albus and Scorpius sees, however, is that James and Lily is seen wandering around outdoors with their baby in a stroller (?).
Quote
[DH,  the letter from Lily to Sirius that Harry reads in Sirius' bedroom]
James is getting a bit frustrated shut up here, he tries not to show it but I can tell – also, Dumbledore’s still got his Invisibility Cloak, so no chance of little excursions. ...

I've always taken this to mean that this family is hiding inside, James have sometimes used his Invisibility Cloak to make excursions outdoors but with the Cloak gone he can not risk it. Yet oddly enough, in CC the family is moving around outside as well. It doesn't really tally with the family in hiding, I think.
That looked wrong to me as well, though it depending on what exactly the secret was. For example, they might be able to leave the house, for example if the secret was "The Potters are hiding in Godric's Hollow" (assuming that is a valid secret) then it might still protect them in the village, though I had also thought the charm only applied to the house itself (perhaps including the garden, but not beyond that)
My thoughts too, yes. I can't see how they could hide a whole village, seeing as there lived an awful lot of people who had nothing to do with the Potters (ie James, Lily and baby Harry). Odd experience for some neighbours if they suddenly can't tell their relatives where they live...  :o not to mention that their village is suddenly invisible! Unless you'd see it if you weren't intending to find the Potters but not otherwise, but... it feels like something of a spoiler.... Hiding the house seems far more reasonable.


Another interesting thing about the letter quoted above, is that another part of it mentions that Bathilda Bagshott visits them often. This means Peter must have told her where they are, although if it was on a written note Bathilda might not have known it was Peter (and not Sirius) who wrote it.
As they are talking about Harry's birthday, that would probably place the letter soon after 31st July, but I think the fidelius charm was only cast a few days before the Potters were killed on 31st October, so the visits by Bathilda probably pre-date the charm. The Potters were probably just hiding in the ordinary way or protected by lesser charms at that point (anyone who has defied Voldemort 3 times each would be well advised to make sure their location isn't widely known).
Ah, good point! That could be it.
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