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Author Topic: Spoiler Warning for Beast Film: The Dangerous Secrets  (Read 830 times)

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November 19, 2016, 03:40:50 PM

Evreka

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So, you've seen the film, right? If not, pick another thread or you better don't mind spoilers!


The Obscure & Dangerous Secrets


Suppressed Magical Ability at its Worst


When the trailers first showed Graves standing in the remnants of a ruined house, I suspect we all wondered which Beast was responsible, at least I did. But when this scene takes place, all of Newt's beasts are still safely in the case... and eventually we find that this was caused by suppressed magic, which bursts out uncontrollably, presumably from a child!!!  :o

This opens the door for some very Dark questions indeed:

* This suggests that wizards and witches are far more dangerous if they can't use their powers than when they can. So why has Muggles for centuries forced them to hide? Wouldn't it be in the Muggles best interest to let them live among them?

* Why is Graves the only wizard in New York (besides Newt) to have strong suspicions as to the cause? Is it because Gellert has seen this before in his past?

* Was this the kind of rage that the Dumbledore's had to put up with from young Ariana? :o

* If so, would she have been likely to survive much longer as she was 16 when she died?

* Why though, is Gellert eager to find the cause this time, when he had no interest at all of Ariana? It can't very well be to hush up the attacks, because he wants to reveal the wizarding world!?

* Why does Newt keep an Obscuro (?) among his creatures? Is this rage somehow similar to a Beast in one way or another? Is it sentient?

(Did any of you understood/remember the difference between Obscuro and Obscurius? Is Obscuro the rage and the Obscurius the one living with it or what was the definitions?)

What are YOUR thoughts on this or any other related aspect of the Obscure and Dangerous Secrets of Hidden Magic? Post away! :typing:
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 03:43:59 PM by Evreka »


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November 21, 2016, 03:10:33 PM
Reply #1

roonwit

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* This suggests that wizards and witches are far more dangerous if they can't use their powers than when they can. So why has Muggles for centuries forced them to hide? Wouldn't it be in the Muggles best interest to let them live among them?
Of course the modern muggles generally don't know enough to have an opinion, but I think a harmonious relationship between the magic and muggle worlds would be to the benefit of both. The problem is that I think a harmonious relationship would be difficult to achieve and maintain as there would always be fear of magic by at least some muggles, and some witches and wizards wanting to use their greater power to subjugate the muggles, meaning that relationships between the magical and non-magical worlds would be fragile.
* Why is Graves the only wizard in New York (besides Newt) to have strong suspicions as to the cause? Is it because Gellert has seen this before in his past?
* Was this the kind of rage that the Dumbledore's had to put up with from young Ariana? :o
It seems likely that Ariana was the source of Gellert's interest in suppressed magic, but her case is slightly different as no one else is stopping her from using magic and those around are trying to help her rather than oppress her, so the effects might not have been so extreme.
* Why though, is Gellert eager to find the cause this time, when he had no interest at all of Ariana? It can't very well be to hush up the attacks, because he wants to reveal the wizarding world!?
I doubt Gellert realised what the results of denying magic would cause until he saw Ariana in the final duel - I imagine Albus gave Gellert the public line on Ariana or downplayed it.
* Why does Newt keep an Obscuro (?) among his creatures? Is this rage somehow similar to a Beast in one way or another? Is it sentient?
(Did any of you understood/remember the difference between Obscuro and Obscurius? Is Obscuro the rage and the Obscurius the one living with it or what was the definitions?)
Newt separated it from the Sudanese girl in an attempt to save her, and kept it to study it, perhaps out of interest or perhaps to increase the chance of saving future people attached to an Obscurus. Newt describes an  Obscurus as an unstable, uncontrollable dark force that bursts out, attacks, then vanishes, also as a parasitical magical force. From the context (it isn't explained in the script as far as I noticed) an Obscurial is the person the Obscurus is attached to.
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November 21, 2016, 05:11:16 PM
Reply #2

atschpe

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* Why is Graves the only wizard in New York (besides Newt) to have strong suspicions as to the cause? Is it because Gellert has seen this before in his past?
* Was this the kind of rage that the Dumbledore's had to put up with from young Ariana? :o
It seems likely that Ariana was the source of Gellert's interest in suppressed magic, but her case is slightly different as no one else is stopping her from using magic and those around are trying to help her rather than oppress her, so the effects might not have been so extreme.

Not to teeter too far away from the film, but I have been wondering if it is not all about who fired killing spelling at Ariana – could there have been obscurial… obscuruisuial (ok, how would we call this?) forces at play in her death? Something we will learn more about?

But yes, this is an interesting point. I would agree that Ariana would not fully be an obscurus as she seems the only one to be suppressing her powers. The question is, how she perceived the others around her. If she felt she was being suppressed by others (were it was their intention or not) this would add to the ticking bomb. With Credence we see how it links to his emotions. I think Newt even makes references to this. And doensn't Albus speak of magic exploding out of her? (I need to grab my books!). Hmmmmmm … I'll have to ponder this further.
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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November 21, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Reply #3

Evreka

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* Why is Graves the only wizard in New York (besides Newt) to have strong suspicions as to the cause? Is it because Gellert has seen this before in his past?
* Was this the kind of rage that the Dumbledore's had to put up with from young Ariana? :o
It seems likely that Ariana was the source of Gellert's interest in suppressed magic, but her case is slightly different as no one else is stopping her from using magic and those around are trying to help her rather than oppress her, so the effects might not have been so extreme.
Not to teeter too far away from the film, but I have been wondering if it is not all about who fired killing spelling at Ariana – could there have been obscurial… obscuruisuial (ok, how would we call this?) forces at play in her death? Something we will learn more about?
This is a really interesting thought. We know that she was scared very badly by magic and to suddenly find all of her remaining family consumed in a magical duel with emotions running high and memories of her mother's death too - she might either have lost her hold over her uncontrollable magic - or attempted to help, as Albus (or Aberforth) suggests at some point. Either way, the force might have "helped" to kill her. What a sad thought, although that whole family story is very tragic.


I'll come back to this thread, too as it's getting very late.
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November 22, 2016, 11:51:38 PM
Reply #4

roonwit

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Not to teeter too far away from the film, but I have been wondering if it is not all about who fired killing spelling at Ariana – could there have been obscurial… obscuruisuial (ok, how would we call this?) forces at play in her death? Something we will learn more about?
This is a really interesting thought. We know that she was scared very badly by magic and to suddenly find all of her remaining family consumed in a magical duel with emotions running high and memories of her mother's death too - she might either have lost her hold over her uncontrollable magic - or attempted to help, as Albus (or Aberforth) suggests at some point. Either way, the force might have "helped" to kill her. What a sad thought, although that whole family story is very tragic.
If Ariana was an obscurial she was lasting well as she was at least 14 when she died (the documented maximum age for an obscurial was 10). It is possible she was trying to harness her magical rage (obscurus or not) to defend her brothers, and perhaps Gellert got a glimpse of what she could do, but it sounds as she was just killed by a stray curse (it doesn't sound as if even Gellert was intending to kill on this occasion). One difference with Credence is that Ariana's body wasn't destroyed.
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November 26, 2016, 01:06:29 PM
Reply #5

atschpe

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Good point roonwit. I think the question is also how black&white this obscurial business is. Is there a point of no return, like with a werewolf bite. I.e. either you are one or you are not. Or is it a gradual process, with some developing of this trait (or maybe even illness) to a larger extent than others. For instance could a child just have an angry burst that explodes windows in the vicinity (much worse than the eruption Harry has at Aunt Petunia), but still remain looking like a child throughout – i.e. not so far "gone". Whilst we have someone like Credence who completely loses any human form and becomes pure emotional/angry energy? If so, could Adriana be on the threshold or milder-side of this condition. 

What is more, Newt seems to believe he could help Credence. Yes he helped a child by removing the obscurial (which makes me think this is like them carrying a personal dementor around that needs to be unstuck). But it felt like he meant more than just removing this energetic force. On the flip side we had Gellert who wanted to use Credence. But also there I got the impression he wanted to change/contain/metamorphosis Credence and/or the energy in some way.

The whole obscurius thing seems much more complex than a one-way street from normal child to raving monster with no-return. There is a recognition that there is a person here that still has choices and influences on what is happening.

Ok … and there is a worrying thought that came to mind: could the obscurius somehow be linked to the Dementor phenomena. We are told by Rowling that
These evil creatures don't, by the way, breed but grow like a fungus where there is decay.
Here we see a decaying person – emotionally, magically …
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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November 26, 2016, 10:08:25 PM
Reply #6

roonwit

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Good point roonwit. I think the question is also how black&white this obscurial business is. Is there a point of no return, like with a werewolf bite. I.e. either you are one or you are not. Or is it a gradual process, with some developing of this trait (or maybe even illness) to a larger extent than others. For instance could a child just have an angry burst that explodes windows in the vicinity (much worse than the eruption Harry has at Aunt Petunia), but still remain looking like a child throughout – i.e. not so far "gone". Whilst we have someone like Credence who completely loses any human form and becomes pure emotional/angry energy? If so, could Adriana be on the threshold or milder-side of this condition.
It does sound like it could be a progressive condition, as the obscurus is parasitical which means it may be gradually weakening the obscurial, in which case it may be that the Sudanese girl was by that point too weak to survive on her own. If that is the case, it may be that Ariana's case was less developed due to her less hostile treatment.
What is more, Newt seems to believe he could help Credence. Yes he helped a child by removing the obscurial (which makes me think this is like them carrying a personal dementor around that needs to be unstuck). But it felt like he meant more than just removing this energetic force. On the flip side we had Gellert who wanted to use Credence. But also there I got the impression he wanted to change/contain/metamorphosis Credence and/or the energy in some way.
I think Newt thought he might be able to help Credence, presumably by separating off the obscurus and getting Credence help to channel his magic more profitably. I think Gellert wanted to stabilize Credence's condition, and then persuade him to direct his anger against his targets (at least once Newt told him it couldn't cause any harm once separated from the obscurial).
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December 11, 2016, 06:30:50 PM
Reply #7

atschpe

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What is more, Newt seems to believe he could help Credence. Yes he helped a child by removing the obscurial (which makes me think this is like them carrying a personal dementor around that needs to be unstuck). But it felt like he meant more than just removing this energetic force. On the flip side we had Gellert who wanted to use Credence. But also there I got the impression he wanted to change/contain/metamorphosis Credence and/or the energy in some way.
I think Newt thought he might be able to help Credence, presumably by separating off the obscurus and getting Credence help to channel his magic more profitably. I think Gellert wanted to stabilize Credence's condition, and then persuade him to direct his anger against his targets (at least once Newt told him it couldn't cause any harm once separated from the obscurial)

I have been pondering this for a while and I can't help but get more and more intrigued by the whole concept. It makes me wonder if Gellert knows more about obscuruses than he lets on. Either through his experience with Adriana, some study … or perhaps they are more common in this period? Thinking you can stabilize and control this (not forgetting Credence is a teenager, who do not like to be controlled) is either very foolish, big-headed or someone who has even more information/skills on hand than Newt. Granted he keeps on about the prophecy, so he might be driven by a hope of somehow using Credence despite what he has become. Or is he blinded by the immense power Credence' outbursts have?

The thing is, if Newt manages to remove the obscurial, what is left for Credence to use. Would he have had the means to train as wizard and fully recover, or would his powers or capacity be diminshed?  Newt might know seeing he has been able to do this for someone. But does Gellert know? This seems to be very new grounds, as it sounds like Newt is the first to have managed to intervene in this way to save someone.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 06:32:32 PM by atschpe »
"Of course it is all in your head, but why on Earth should that mean it isn't real?" ~Dumbledore (DH)
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December 11, 2016, 10:32:25 PM
Reply #8

roonwit

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I have been pondering this for a while and I can't help but get more and more intrigued by the whole concept. It makes me wonder if Gellert knows more about obscuruses than he lets on. Either through his experience with Adriana, some study … or perhaps they are more common in this period? Thinking you can stabilize and control this (not forgetting Credence is a teenager, who do not like to be controlled) is either very foolish, big-headed or someone who has even more information/skills on hand than Newt. Granted he keeps on about the prophecy, so he might be driven by a hope of somehow using Credence despite what he has become. Or is he blinded by the immense power Credence' outbursts have?
I think Gellert's plan was to control the obscurus by controlling the obscurial and manipulating them to direct their anger at his chosen target. That should be just about possible given his control over Credence until he lost his trust. Perhaps he was also hoping to separate off the obscurus and control it directly until Newt told him it was impossible.
The thing is, if Newt manages to remove the obscurial, what is left for Credence to use. Would he have had the means to train as wizard and fully recover, or would his powers or capacity be diminshed?  Newt might know seeing he has been able to do this for someone. But does Gellert know? This seems to be very new grounds, as it sounds like Newt is the first to have managed to intervene in this way to save someone.
I don't think Gellert would care what happened to the obscurial if they were separated from the obscurus. If Credence survived the separation from his obscurus, then I think he could become an ordinary wizard, possibly initially weaker than normal but I think he could recover once the obscurus was no longer feeding off his magical power.
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